The world we live in now is evolving so quickly, experience is of diminished valued. Currency --- current knowledge --- is of far greater importance.
We now live in a world in which NOBODY has twenty years of USEFUL experience. Some MAY have one year of experience 20 times but what we did or knew 5 years ago is almost totally irrelevant.
Five years ago, builiding inspectors came to a job site with a roll of plans and a file under their arm. Now a pool inspector comes to a job site with a laptop and is able to access the entire Building Code as well as the entire file of the job, including the plans on the lap top. Modern inspection departments outfit their inspectors with a digital camera and they take pictures of the job documenting their inspections. The pictures are loaded onto their laptop and to a central server. The inspector can type in a quick commentary.
This was an unlikely application 5 years ago and it would be a very simple matter today.
While I certainly value experience, my point is that TODAY the employment market allows a city like SBS to retain very, very well educated folks --- who also have construction experience --- because of the job market not because they lust after the position. There is a bit of recession and high unemployment out there.
I have a big fraction of a century worth of experience dealing with inspectors of every stripe. As I have said: "It ain't rocket science."
It is an employers market.
I have some passing acquaintance with the subject being a CE and having been a PE, having owned a light construction company (interior finish, rehab, tilt-up panel warehouses, apartments), having developed high rise office buildings in 3 different states, having owned and renovated thousands of apartments and hundreds of warehouses.
The anecdote you note about the electrical engineers is funny and witty. I love it. It is a bit dopey as most folks know how to jump a car or charge a battery while in their teens. It is irrelevant to the real world or this subject. But I did enjoy it.
You're wandering a bit off the gameboard. Most building inspectors are HS grads. The work is simply not that difficult as it does not even require a college degree in anything.
My point is very simple --- in the current economy they can be replaced by folks who have both degrees in engineering and practical construction experience. An upgrade in talent and education.
In any event, the department should be required to manage its costs consistent with its work flow and revenue.
The proposition that the department will suffer a fatal discontinuity and therefore cannot engage in fundamental business management practices is just so much baloney.
As Charles de Gaulle said: "The graveyards are filled with indispensable men."
My second favorite being: "How can you govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?"
What is happening in the WH just now is amateur hour, on the job training, playing golf and shooting hoops, galivanting around the world bowing to foreign heads of state and emperors, projecting one's personality as a pretense for hard diplomacy, state dinners while one in six of our countrymen are out of work, have no real prospects of finding a job and while we are engaged in three wars --- Iraq, A'stan and terror!
Tell me how much you like the WH's mojo when unemployment bubbles up to 20% cause there are no obstacles to that level being erected by anybody just now.
I have no brief or defense for the Republicans. I agree completely with your objections to the quality of their reign. A pox on their house but they are not in charge now, sport.
This is Barack H Obama's hands on the steering wheel and we are headed for the ditch.
You are not offended by an administration which promised the "most transparent administration in history" and allows 2,000 page health care bills to be produced without the benefit of any committee, subcommittee hearings and which fails to allow the entire Congress to read the bill before it is enacted into law?
If so, you are a unthinking stooge and are willing to be used like a hankie.
It is going to get pretty damn ugly before there is a ray of sunlight.
Looking at the list of things you note I can only say that is some pretty tame stuff. 90% of it is "monkey see - monkey do". 10% of it is simply checking the field conditions v the specs. Well within the scope of a moderately talented engineer with a couple of years of construction experience.
The knowledge challenge is not very intimidating though it does take a high level of attention to detail. I suspect in the short term, an inspector develops a nose for which contractors are doing quality work and which are trying to cut corners. Which jobs are professionally managed and which ones are jake leg operations.
Commercial construction is significantly more complex and would be great preparation for this type of work.
Unfortunately, the entire country is overrun with talent just now and that has a powerful bearing on the supply of folks who could do this job.
I just don't think it is nearly as challenging as you paint it to be.
The brilliance of your arguments is overshadowed only by the perspicaciousness of your prose. LOL
Bad, bad, bad George W Bush. It's all his fault.
Come on, this has nothing to do with the past or George W Bush. I will concede whatever you suggest as it relates to W, if you will just shift your focus to the real world and the here and now. Please.
I think you may have unintentionally made my argument. You will note that I observed that the "...construction industry is contracting and there are tons of qualified folks looking for work...".
I see the opportunity as being one of finding folks who have BOTH construction and engineering backgrounds.
Nonetheless, you do an injustice to civil/structural engineering, construction management and construction industry grads when you suggest that they are lacking in practical construction experience. Today, a student virtually cannot get a degree without interning with a construction company.
In addition, a great number of engineering schools --- particularly in the architectural engineering curriculum --- teach the building code particulars. At the end of the day, building codes are nothing more than the codification of the "best" practices for construction.
As a civil myself, I can assure you that even in the dark ages when I received my degree, we had to be able to set a level, finish concrete, test a weld, etc. --- all practical precursor disciplines to building inspection skills.
I remember with great clarity dismissing my concrete lab classmates to the sidelines while I finished our 10' of sidewalk as I had spent the previous summer finishing concrete every day. It took less than an hour to grub the site, set the forms, lay the mesh, place the concrete and put a professional broom finish on it. I also neatly troweled the edges and joints. We got an extra 3 hours of sleep that afternoon. LOL
Again, note I recognize the necessity and advisability of seeking out folks who have BOTH construction and engineering backgrounds.
In my personal experience having built high rise office buildings of very advanced structural design, the real peril is in small buildings.
As it relates to tall buildings, a building inspector is unlikely to have the engineering background to even understand the intricacies of forming systems, reinforcing steel design principles, concrete quality control implications of admixtures/pumping/mix design while the structural engineers and contractors who routinely participate in these type of projects are completely versed in these intricacies.
The quality control of such projects is a team effort and the engineers must inspect the work to ensure compliance with the specifications. Most large contractors employ civil engineers as general superintendents on such delicate projects.
It is this pool of talent which can be tapped as the construction industry continues to contract.
The anecdotal information does not appear to support your claim in that most structures are built to such overlapping and redundant factors of safety that there is almost no record of structural failure of even minimally supervised construction. Most failures are during the actual process of construction rather than with the finished product.
Mr Tai Chi, never was more said with fewer words. Pretty damn..........................................................................................................clever!
Making the staffing proportional to the workload does not in any way diminish the level of scrutiny or care per plan submitted.
It simply means that the ratio of workers to volume of work is maintained as a constant.
Lots of really nice guys lose their jobs. The issue is simply one of workload and finances.
When the average age of your staff indicates that the knowledge base of the enterprise is going to evaporate with normal turnover and retirement, it is logical to hire some younger people.
Why don't we just try rational thought and simple business logic for a change? Or is government immune from such basic concepts?
This is what every business owner in SBS does every day. Get over it and get with it.
Why is the prospect of bringing one's staffing into line with the flow of the actual business such an alien concept?
That is what every enterprise in America does as a routine part of managing their enterprise.
If a government is to be an "enterprise" and funded by its own revenue, it is going to have to anticipate the ebbs and flows of the markets it serves. That is Business 101.
A plan of succession for folks who have 27 years experience is just as necessary given normal retirement turnover as it is in the current example. Businesses and governments have to plan for normal turnover.
The complexity of building and plan inspection is way overstated. The good news is that the construction industry is contracting and there are tons of qualified folks looking for work. I suspect you could rebuild that entire department from the ground up with eager young degreed engineers of flawless integrity if one had the gumption to do it.
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
@ aic ---
The world we live in now is evolving so quickly, experience is of diminished valued. Currency --- current knowledge --- is of far greater importance.
We now live in a world in which NOBODY has twenty years of USEFUL experience. Some MAY have one year of experience 20 times but what we did or knew 5 years ago is almost totally irrelevant.
Five years ago, builiding inspectors came to a job site with a roll of plans and a file under their arm. Now a pool inspector comes to a job site with a laptop and is able to access the entire Building Code as well as the entire file of the job, including the plans on the lap top. Modern inspection departments outfit their inspectors with a digital camera and they take pictures of the job documenting their inspections. The pictures are loaded onto their laptop and to a central server. The inspector can type in a quick commentary.
This was an unlikely application 5 years ago and it would be a very simple matter today.
While I certainly value experience, my point is that TODAY the employment market allows a city like SBS to retain very, very well educated folks --- who also have construction experience --- because of the job market not because they lust after the position. There is a bit of recession and high unemployment out there.
I have a big fraction of a century worth of experience dealing with inspectors of every stripe. As I have said: "It ain't rocket science."
It is an employers market.
I have some passing acquaintance with the subject being a CE and having been a PE, having owned a light construction company (interior finish, rehab, tilt-up panel warehouses, apartments), having developed high rise office buildings in 3 different states, having owned and renovated thousands of apartments and hundreds of warehouses.
The anecdote you note about the electrical engineers is funny and witty. I love it. It is a bit dopey as most folks know how to jump a car or charge a battery while in their teens. It is irrelevant to the real world or this subject. But I did enjoy it.
November 28, 2009 at 3:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
@ aic ---
You're wandering a bit off the gameboard. Most building inspectors are HS grads. The work is simply not that difficult as it does not even require a college degree in anything.
My point is very simple --- in the current economy they can be replaced by folks who have both degrees in engineering and practical construction experience. An upgrade in talent and education.
In any event, the department should be required to manage its costs consistent with its work flow and revenue.
The proposition that the department will suffer a fatal discontinuity and therefore cannot engage in fundamental business management practices is just so much baloney.
As Charles de Gaulle said: "The graveyards are filled with indispensable men."
My second favorite being: "How can you govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?"
November 26, 2009 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
@ aic ---
Well, maybe, all those unemployed building inspectors can get jobs as US Navy Test Pilots? LOL
OK, it snows in SBS. We got that.
Sheesh, come on, aic, it ain't that hard, pal! Give it a rest!
November 25, 2009 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
John Salazar: Health care reform good for state
What is happening in the WH just now is amateur hour, on the job training, playing golf and shooting hoops, galivanting around the world bowing to foreign heads of state and emperors, projecting one's personality as a pretense for hard diplomacy, state dinners while one in six of our countrymen are out of work, have no real prospects of finding a job and while we are engaged in three wars --- Iraq, A'stan and terror!
Tell me how much you like the WH's mojo when unemployment bubbles up to 20% cause there are no obstacles to that level being erected by anybody just now.
I have no brief or defense for the Republicans. I agree completely with your objections to the quality of their reign. A pox on their house but they are not in charge now, sport.
This is Barack H Obama's hands on the steering wheel and we are headed for the ditch.
You are not offended by an administration which promised the "most transparent administration in history" and allows 2,000 page health care bills to be produced without the benefit of any committee, subcommittee hearings and which fails to allow the entire Congress to read the bill before it is enacted into law?
If so, you are a unthinking stooge and are willing to be used like a hankie.
It is going to get pretty damn ugly before there is a ray of sunlight.
November 24, 2009 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
@ aic ---
Looking at the list of things you note I can only say that is some pretty tame stuff. 90% of it is "monkey see - monkey do". 10% of it is simply checking the field conditions v the specs. Well within the scope of a moderately talented engineer with a couple of years of construction experience.
The knowledge challenge is not very intimidating though it does take a high level of attention to detail. I suspect in the short term, an inspector develops a nose for which contractors are doing quality work and which are trying to cut corners. Which jobs are professionally managed and which ones are jake leg operations.
Commercial construction is significantly more complex and would be great preparation for this type of work.
Unfortunately, the entire country is overrun with talent just now and that has a powerful bearing on the supply of folks who could do this job.
I just don't think it is nearly as challenging as you paint it to be.
November 24, 2009 at 5:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
John Salazar: Health care reform good for state
jim & 1/2 wit ---
The brilliance of your arguments is overshadowed only by the perspicaciousness of your prose. LOL
Bad, bad, bad George W Bush. It's all his fault.
Come on, this has nothing to do with the past or George W Bush. I will concede whatever you suggest as it relates to W, if you will just shift your focus to the real world and the here and now. Please.
November 24, 2009 at 1:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
@ aic ---
I think you may have unintentionally made my argument. You will note that I observed that the "...construction industry is contracting and there are tons of qualified folks looking for work...".
I see the opportunity as being one of finding folks who have BOTH construction and engineering backgrounds.
Nonetheless, you do an injustice to civil/structural engineering, construction management and construction industry grads when you suggest that they are lacking in practical construction experience. Today, a student virtually cannot get a degree without interning with a construction company.
In addition, a great number of engineering schools --- particularly in the architectural engineering curriculum --- teach the building code particulars. At the end of the day, building codes are nothing more than the codification of the "best" practices for construction.
As a civil myself, I can assure you that even in the dark ages when I received my degree, we had to be able to set a level, finish concrete, test a weld, etc. --- all practical precursor disciplines to building inspection skills.
I remember with great clarity dismissing my concrete lab classmates to the sidelines while I finished our 10' of sidewalk as I had spent the previous summer finishing concrete every day. It took less than an hour to grub the site, set the forms, lay the mesh, place the concrete and put a professional broom finish on it. I also neatly troweled the edges and joints. We got an extra 3 hours of sleep that afternoon. LOL
Again, note I recognize the necessity and advisability of seeking out folks who have BOTH construction and engineering backgrounds.
In my personal experience having built high rise office buildings of very advanced structural design, the real peril is in small buildings.
As it relates to tall buildings, a building inspector is unlikely to have the engineering background to even understand the intricacies of forming systems, reinforcing steel design principles, concrete quality control implications of admixtures/pumping/mix design while the structural engineers and contractors who routinely participate in these type of projects are completely versed in these intricacies.
The quality control of such projects is a team effort and the engineers must inspect the work to ensure compliance with the specifications. Most large contractors employ civil engineers as general superintendents on such delicate projects.
It is this pool of talent which can be tapped as the construction industry continues to contract.
The anecdotal information does not appear to support your claim in that most structures are built to such overlapping and redundant factors of safety that there is almost no record of structural failure of even minimally supervised construction. Most failures are during the actual process of construction rather than with the finished product.
November 24, 2009 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
John Salazar: Health care reform good for state
Mr Tai Chi, never was more said with fewer words. Pretty damn..........................................................................................................clever!
November 24, 2009 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
Making the staffing proportional to the workload does not in any way diminish the level of scrutiny or care per plan submitted.
It simply means that the ratio of workers to volume of work is maintained as a constant.
Lots of really nice guys lose their jobs. The issue is simply one of workload and finances.
When the average age of your staff indicates that the knowledge base of the enterprise is going to evaporate with normal turnover and retirement, it is logical to hire some younger people.
Why don't we just try rational thought and simple business logic for a change? Or is government immune from such basic concepts?
This is what every business owner in SBS does every day. Get over it and get with it.
November 23, 2009 at 10:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Struggling building department seeks 58 percent fee increase
Why is the prospect of bringing one's staffing into line with the flow of the actual business such an alien concept?
That is what every enterprise in America does as a routine part of managing their enterprise.
If a government is to be an "enterprise" and funded by its own revenue, it is going to have to anticipate the ebbs and flows of the markets it serves. That is Business 101.
A plan of succession for folks who have 27 years experience is just as necessary given normal retirement turnover as it is in the current example. Businesses and governments have to plan for normal turnover.
The complexity of building and plan inspection is way overstated. The good news is that the construction industry is contracting and there are tons of qualified folks looking for work. I suspect you could rebuild that entire department from the ground up with eager young degreed engineers of flawless integrity if one had the gumption to do it.
Cutting staff is not "horrible", it is realistic.
November 23, 2009 at 6:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )