The Steamboat Pilot & Today

LookoutJoe (anonymous)
July 15, 2007 at 3:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

unnecessary

WZ (anonymous)
July 15, 2007 at 3:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If the election were held today, would you vote in favor of a Steamboat tax payer funded $34 million grant to feed, medicate and educate the millions of people suffering in Africa?

Enjoy your swimming pool, Steamboat.

thecondoguy1 (anonymous)
July 15, 2007 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

WZ, you go for it, send the money now, you can save Africa, and while you are at it send 34 mil to Louisiana, gimmie a break...........

stompk (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How about a $20,000,000 rec site. Take the other $14 mil and buy everyone who rents in town a place to live.
Do we pay taxes to feed the rich?

michaelute (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 9:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would vote against a $34 million recreation Center because it doesn't make economic sense. I'm retired, and I have trouble finding enough time to fit all my hobbies and sports activities into the week. I am always, really really busy. It's not particularly important exactly what I do, the point is, I have no pressing need to pay my (and my wife's) share of a very expensive proposition, like the recreation center.

If you divide $34 million by the approximate 10,000 residents of Steamboat Springs, it works out to $3400 for every man woman and child. If you extend that figure for a family of four, their share of the obligation would be $13,600. This presupposes that the project comes in on budget. When was the last time that happened? Furthermore, it is my understanding, that all similar community centers are not self-sustaining. The fees generated by participating users, never cover the cost of operations. So on top of paying the capital costs, will all have to share in covering the operating expenses. I hesitate to guess what that will be.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in this proposed facility that I don't have similar access to already. While it would be nice to have a new dedicated community center, I would vote yes, only if the residents of Aspen paid for it.

Michael Lichtenstein

thecondoguy1 (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

stompk, when is the last time you or I paid to feed the rich, look around go to the assessors records, you will see who pays the bills around here............

nordicskier (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

did we move here to live indoors? I moved here to be outside
nordic ski ski jump mnt. bike.....

stompk (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well condoguy, about 13% came from property tax in 2006, with the businesses taking up about 75% of that.

Then, we turn around and spend 11% on special districts.

Look for yourself. Inquiring minds wanna know. Glad you asked. In the 35 yrs I've lived here, I never looked it up.

http://co.routt.co.us/commissioners/Acco...

Judging by the results of the poll, with the majority being against it, I imagine it will get built.

stompk (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 3:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I should say that 26% comes from property tax, instead of 13%

thecondoguy1 (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 6:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

good job stompk, interesting to see where it comes from as well as where it goes, seems to me if it were not for the "rich" we would be plum screwed to educate, our children and operate the county services, seems they are feeding us one way or the other...............weather they live here for six weeks or three.

another_local (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is not the "rich" that are paying tax on all that commercial property. It is the tenants in the property that pay it; mostly small businesses. Owners of commercial property do not pay the taxes. Pretty much all leases today pass that tax DIRECTLY to the renter: that means that the folks at Brooklyn's Pizza, Backcountry Provisions, Backdoor Sports, Orange Peel Bikes, First String Music, Urban Laundry, All that Jazz etc etc etc are the ones picking up the tab... not the folks that own the buildings they rent.

How does it compare? If you own a home in town that is worth 1 million you are going to pay about $4000 in property tax. If you rent a building that is worth a million (less than 2000 square feet downtown) you are going to pay about $15,000. Does that seem fair to you?

So if you earn 50K as a nail pounder and live in a home worth 400K you pay less than $2000 in property tax. If you earn 50K as a small busines owner with a rented property and live in the same home you are going to pay more like $10,000.

oofcboy (anonymous)
July 16, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Boy am I glade I live in South Routt

stormpeakco (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

like lookoutjoe stated originally, unnecessary.

stompk (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There are people in this town who struggle everyday to put a meal on the table.
When did recreation become more important that taking care of the needy?
Oh, but we can destroy the little trailer parks, so the rich folk can live near the river.
The rich better start appreciating to poor. Without the poor, they would have no one to step on to get to the top, and the pyramid will collapse, leaving the rich at the bottom.
None of the poor people in this town will be able to afford membership at this "club", so don't tell me this is for everybody.

thecondoguy1 (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

another local, I would assume the small bus owner earns the 50k after she pays the property tax as well as other costs and expenses associated with a commercial enterprize. If she does not maybe she should go out and pound nails.

stompk (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 9:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

From the County Assessor pdf

"The increase in the County’s core revenue sources
such as Property Tax and Sales Tax have not
increased to match the combined increases in
compensation, health insurance, fuel and paved road
maintenance and overlay costs in the County. The
County has the ability to maintain existing service
levels for the near future, but will have difficulty
maintaining services and providing additional
services if the current trend of increasing costs
continue."

But we can afford a $34 mil rec center?

If this goes through, better believe I will be making a BIG STINK about it!

Socrates (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is much more going into this recreation center than a swimming pool.

The number one priority identified by locals who attended constituency meetings and the City's consultants is out of school space and programming for children K-12.

The lack of affordable, accessible, and high-quality child care, school-age care, and teen programs has a negative effect on current and future educational attainment and employment for parents and children, the economy and family income, and physical and emotional environments in which people live.

stompk (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Socrates, could you elaborate. Are they putting day care for the common folk in the rec center?

Socrates (anonymous)
July 17, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Many, many community, local, family, full-time resident friendly amenities, features and programs are addressed with this plan.

It is a comprehensive multi-generational facility. The Parks and Rec Pee-Wee , Afterschool Action, School Days Off and Summer Camp programs would all move here. Currently Afterschool Action, School Days Off and Summer Camp are oversubscribed with a waitlist on a daily basis due to lack of space. Many youth in our community, the children of working parents of all economic levels and family situations, do not have reliable access to safe and supervised out of school activities regardless of cost.

If you would like to see what sort of choices our city leaders have been making with your tax dollars go and check out the "Igloo" Steamboat's only daily resource for out of school youth. It is a nasty either too hot or too cold trailer with hockey players breathing down its neck because they want more ice. It is a little hard to swallow City Council's desire to buy wind power and endlessly study the airport when you see how they undervalue youth and families.

Another additional feature is a zero depth pool entry for seniors, young children and even the odd athlete who perhaps has had a recent surgery, imagine that...

Before getting completely amped up about dissing the recreation center, find out real information about what recreation centers are doing in Colorado and around the nation. If citizens of Steamboat Springs truly want to retain some small town character, they might want to support some well considered development that in the end reaps great social benefits. Communities that care for their youth are successful communities. Communities that do not get to pay for more jail and substance abuse treatment space.

I don't know of any municipalities that regret building their Community Recreation Centers. Their only regret is they didn't build them large enough from the start, both Breckenridge and Durango are expanding theirs.

addlip2U (anonymous)
July 18, 2007 at 2:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How did all the people that grew up and/or moved here to date survived without all of the now "SO MUCH NEEDED" recreation center?

Steamboat offers plenty of outdoor recreational facilities, use it. Be creative and ENJOY what is here.

Steamboat Spring is not a "social welfare" community.

Those that want/need such recreational facililites should pull their financial resources together, be creative. Bring in the business that you wish to provide you with services you want or feel you need. Competition is healthy and it will improve the services we already have. Let private enterprises strive.

As a responsible parent I paid for all of my children's private child care,sport/art/camps and many extra curricular activities.

Your child is NOT the city or other tax payers responsibility. If you can't afford child care or the activities you wish for them to participatein , don' t have them!

stompk (anonymous)
July 18, 2007 at 8:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Aren't we building a brand new school. Why isn't day care and preschool incorperated in this?

Aren't we building a brand new community center?

I get the feeling the day care and all the social activities will be for the members of the "club", and won't benefit anyone that really needs it.

addlip2u. I agree with some of your point. However, the take care of yourself and don't worry about anybody else attitude, has never been a core value of Steamboat.

Part of the pleasure of living here, is the community. A community takes care of the ones that are having trouble taking care of themselves. Period.

I too, pay the $50 a day daycare. I make a decent living, and I struggle with this. I can't imagine how it is for someone who makes any less than I do.

If your coming up here, and enjoying your second or third vacation house, and not really doing anything in the community, the least one could do is look into helping those who can barely afford the place they are renting.

Isn't that the Golden Rule? Or have we gotten so selfish, that the Golden Rule no longer applies? Is this just a town for tourists any more. Or are we an old cowtown, with old cowtown values. Where do you want it to go, for your children?

retiredinss (anonymous)
July 18, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Most other community supported recreational centers cost not only taxpayer dollars to build, but additionally taxpayer dollars annually to operate, and then require something on the order of $75 monthly per family for membership. One of the earlier writers here pointed out that the cost to family of four would be greater than $12,000 initially plus several hundred dollars annually. Question for those discussing here, which of the several different aspects of the rec center are truly needed and which are simply nice to have? Seems to me, someone tried to lump a raft of different wants into a package and call it a rec center. I have seen arguments that the teens need a place--but have heard from many parents that their teens will never use it! I have heard arguments that we need a competition pool, but have also heard that this need is limited to a few tens of persons. I have heard that we need daycare. but shouldn't a day care center cost an awful lot less than $34 million? I have heard that the fitness facilities in town are lacking, but have not heard why commercial fitness providers are unwilling to come to SS to provide them. Why is it that these facilities must be provided by the city?

JazzSlave (anonymous)
July 18, 2007 at 4:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Steamboat is one of the recreational meccas of the universe. Anyone who can't find something rewarding to do with their down time absent this proposed boondoggle ain't trying very hard. I hope I'm not required to fund their indolence and stupidity.

buck (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This town has exceptional outdoor activity possibilities. Use them. I wouldn't use or vote for this rec center if it was free. So, I can attest that everyone who states that this facility will be for everyone is lying.

BoulderGrad (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's unfortunate that this question is unable to tell the whole story, or educate readers (and bloggers) on how this proposed rec center can be responsibly achieved. How about the question reading, "Do you support an all-encompassing, multi-generational rec center in Steamboat?" My vote is yes as it will be a focal point for our community that can be used by everyone.

Yes, it is great to recreate outdoors but we can't do that all year long. We need public gymnasiums that all sports can use and are always available. We do not have an indoor pool which can be used for so many different sports and activities, as well as cross-training for all of our athletes. An indoor walking/running track would be a great addition to our community.

Where are the bloggers who want to make Steamboat an even better place to live? Where are the bloggers who are looking out for the future for our children? Where are the bloggers who are positive in their responses instead of constant bashing and negativity? I guess that once again I'm setting myself up for attack. But please know that this will not be achieved irresponsibly.

Let's support the Ski Town Rec Center! It will be a wonderful place for everyone.

retiredinss (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear BoulderGrad-

A responsible, open conversation is certainly welcome. However, to describe those who raise questions and issues as 'constant bashing and negativity' is, I believe, a completely unfair characterization of those who do not agree with you. If we can stick to the issues that must be addressed and avoid personal attacks, the community will benefit.

BoulderGrad (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Retired in SS, you are right. I must also keep my emotions at bay. However, words that have been thrown out there on this blog and others are "indolence and stupidity," "Go jump in a frozen lake!", called a Communist, accused of "Socialist Stupidity."

Just know that the details are being worked out right now. If they are unreasonable then it will fail. From what I have learned (unpublished as of yet), a rec center may be able to be achieved responsibly and affordably. I know it sounds crazy, but please be patient. It will really be a benefit to everyone in our community.

wzhillbilly (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 10:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In her july 18, letter to the editor, rec center proponent JoEllen Heydon, states "Local gym space is at or beyond capacity". This is a blatantly false statement. I go to the gym on the west end of downtown. At the prime 5:00pm time a big crowd there is five people.That facility is a long way from "beyond capacity". If sensational false statments are necessary to swing public opinion, then we don't really need this $34 millon tax burden.

Socrates (anonymous)
July 19, 2007 at 11:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe that Ms. Heydon is referring to gym space for league sports not "fitness centers". The school's gyms are used for basketball, volleyball, wrestling, indoor soccer etc. These leagues serve both youth and adult recreational players. Currently all of the people who would like to participate cannot due to lack of space and availability. Open gym access is even more limited.