Archive for Wednesday, February 6, 2008
Jack and Lynny Huston: Pray for Jerusalem
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Our leadership says we will have peace in the Mideast by carving up Israel and dividing Jerusalem to create a Frankenstein state called Palestine. Much like the classic work of fiction, this freak of assorted parcels of land will turn on its creator and terrorize the local neighborhood.
Before our leadership breathes life into this modern-day monster, let's look at a work of nonfiction called the Bible. The Creator gave a piece of real estate called Israel to the Jewish people. The earnest money was faith. Metes and bounds were from a burning bush in Egypt to some tall cedars in Lebanon, and from sandy beaches on the Mediterranean to 12 stones under the Jordan River. Time of possession was same day. These terms are forever.
Don't forget to read the fine print, specifically where it states that God will bless those who bless the Jewish people and curse those who curse the Jewish people.
Now look at financing options. Let's not subprime Israel and the Jewish people, or the Almighty will reset his A.R.M. on us while our nation slides into foreclosure.
We wrote this letter to clear our name. We stand for Israel and the Jewish people. Saying that we are giving peace to Israel by taking their land from them and giving it to people not looking for peace is wrong. Consider where you stand on Israel. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Jack and Lynny Huston
Phippsburg
Comments
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
The Ute indians lost their land in Steamboat. That was their holy land. What makes Israel's more important then theirs? I say nothing.
February 6, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
History of the Ute's in Steamboat.
They were here much longer than any of us. Pray for the UTES!
http://ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/mof...
February 6, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now ( anonymous ) says...
I support civil behavior, which I have seen precious little of from either faciton.
February 6, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
Just how is it you rationalize living on stolen Native American land while condemning the Israelis for stealing land? Surely, their claim to that land, however weak you may think it is, is more legitimate than your claim to this land. You are the direct beneficiary of a genocidal campaign against the Indigenous population. Perhaps if the Ute engaged in violent Jihad to get their land back, you'd volunteer to remove yourself peacefully from the land that is rightfully theirs.
February 6, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Here we go again! Firstly, your 'Native' Americans are nothing of the sort. They emigrated here from somewhere else also. Check out the kennewick remains and any recent archaeological finds of the past 2 decades. All testify to inward migrations of various peoples into the North American continent. Secondly, all you anti-religious and/or atheistic sneerers of people of Faith, remember this---however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing. The person of Real Intelligence never denies the possibility of anything beyond the scope of
their cognition.
February 6, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
I've never understood the more virulent Christian bashing. As an agnostic, I have no dog in the fight. freshair is right: the pope can't prove there is; Michael Newdow can't prove there isn't. I don't see what the faithless have to gain by trashing the faithful (the Jimmy Swaggarts & Louis Farrakahns notwithstanding).
February 6, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
A few choice passages from that "work of nonfiction":
Deuteronomy 2:25 "This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee."
(Sounds like terrorism to me.)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 "And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
(Kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out, eh?)
Deuteronomy 3:6 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
(Genocide? Yep.)
Deuteronomy 7:2 "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
(This from an merciful deity?)
Joshua 6:21 "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."
(That's what I call a scorched earth campaign.)
Joshua 8:26 "For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai."
(But god told him to do it. So that's okay.)
And more, and more, and more. Genocide and slaughter, even of innocents, on a massive scale. It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation.
February 6, 2008 at 3 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
February 6, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Uh, mr. Jay-k, you can find examples of this in the scripture of every major religion, jewish, christian, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, sikh. That was then, this is now the year 2008, not 2006 BC or 600 AD. Judaism and Christianity have modernized and gone through various cycles of Reformation. The source of Religious strife and fanatic violence today is to be found within Islam. Islam has not undergone any Reformation and is essentially the same totalitarian ideology it has been from Day One. So whereas Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights in the countries where they are the majority, Islam has not . To be a religious minority under Islam means to exist as a Dhimmi, a second-class citizen with sharply curtailed rights of expression of worship and all matters of civil and criminal legality.
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
So Jay_k,
Give us the goods on who was there in the Holy Land back then since you have picked a few of your favorite passages from who knows which bible version.
Why don't you then explain how in the heck a small number of Jews in Israel were able to thwart the huge armies of Arabs surrounding them over the centuries in their desire to eliminate the jews.
You don't have to believe but you have to acknowledge some kind of amazing grace.
But I know, people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites to a homeland even if there is evidence that they were the residents of the Holy Land in the Biblical era.
The archealogical evidence is against you.
February 6, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
Why do you think W is so hated by the left? No President has supported Israel more than he.
February 6, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
That he wears his religion on his sleeve doesn't engender the warm fuzzies, either.
February 6, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
Honesty sucks eh.
February 6, 2008 at 4:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Funny thing is that the Evangelicals really don't care about the Jews. Yes they want Israel to exist, only in as much as it must for the second coming of Christ as fortold in their holy book. Problem is, the Jews get slaughtered in this vesion of the fairytale...
Why would the paper publish this zealot tripe any how? If an Islamic Fundamentalist submitted a piece on the destruction of Israel and the US, would the paper publish it? Too much proselytizing in the commentary to make it worth a crap. Why couldn't they put forth a better secular argument for why our friends, the Israelis, have a historical right to exist in the region without bathing it in the blood of religious self-righteousness.
In my opinion these folks have done a disservice to the Israelis by confusing geographical history with the kind of religious garbage that turns off thinking people. The same could be said for the Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories.
I would love to see peace in this region in my life time, but I seriously doubt that the way we are going to achieve it is with everybody looking for answers in their pet version of an ancient myth.
February 6, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
The great one has spoken.
Why don't you at least read the history concerning Balfour?
Palestinians? Spare me, the radical arab leaders used these castoways as political pawns. The Jews agreed to a 2 state solution in 1948 that would have given them much less land than today and the arabs attacked.
No one wants peace more than the Jews but not at the point of a sword.
The British created this problem.
February 6, 2008 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
Heres a good story that kind of illustrates what we are dealing with.
Make peace with this!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news...
February 6, 2008 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad.
February 6, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
YAHUDAH is here to stay
February 6, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
amen.
February 6, 2008 at 6:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
Chazak Amenu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cu0T4...
February 6, 2008 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Hadleyburg_Press says:
"...Jewish settlers that use their holy book to continually inflame the hatreds of the Palestinian people by erecting new enclaves in the occupied territories."
DING DING DING DING DING! THIS IS AN AUTOMATED REPLY FROM JAZZSLAVE'S AUTOMATIC B.S. DETECTOR. Your recent post contains troll-like characteristics which resemble the rantings of Nazi sympathizers, Osama bin Laden, and college students who have snorted the malign ravings of Noam Chomsky & Ward Churchill.
To determine whether or not the Detector was set off in error, kindly reply to the following questions:
1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the "Palestinians" in the first place, and only came to the Israelis as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, & Lebanon all joined forces and launched a war to "push the Jews into the sea"? Israel won & took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Arabs don't want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn't start wars? Do you see justice in the proposition that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live prosperously - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land & massive oil wealth live in their own s&*t?
2. Did you know that the "Palestinians" could have had their own nation as early as 1948 had they accepted the UN partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians countries of their own - on land Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer killing his parents and asking for mercy since he is now an orphan?
3. Can name ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, participate in government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn't you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?
4. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?
5. Please explain why you are so concerned about "Palestinian hatred", while their Arab compatriots possess 99% of the land in the region and are in control of the world's greatest natural resource? Can't their brother Muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature's riches to the "Palestinians"? Or is it true that Arabs are only willing to die right down to the last "Palestinian"?
February 6, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Continued from previous post...
6. You wail about the inflammation of Palestinian hatred. Do you feel similar concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing, and slavery? What about women who are denied basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of their male relatives? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of "Palestinians" by Jordan (Black September)? Do you find any of this more egregious or less egregious than "Palestinian" hatred?
7. Have you ever considered how much better off everyone would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: THEY WOULD ALL BE AT PEACE! And without a war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why do that when there are Jews to kill?
8. Have you heard "People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery"? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to suicide themselves in order to commit murder? Do you recall Goldy Meir's famous remark (paraphrasing from memory) "There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours"? Why do the Arabs hate so much?
Please note that this endorsement of Israel contains no religious justification. No "pet version of an ancient myth." Your response to it, as a self-proclaimed "thinking person" will dictate whether or not the B.S. Detector needs to be re calibrated.
February 6, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
My apologies to a great Leader: Golda.
February 6, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
jester1cp,
Beautiful!!!!
And jazzslave,
right on.
February 6, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seeuski ( anonymous ) says...
If Obama and Ron Paul have their way Israel is in trouble, and g-d forbid Slick Willy gets back in the Oral office.
Yes, having friends that are Christian and love the land of Israel is wonderful.
February 6, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
smoke ( anonymous ) says...
Protacalls of the Eldars of Zion http://youtube.com/watch?v=7VZ7av9FWD...
February 6, 2008 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
smoke:
Have a good time at your next G.E.D. reunion.
February 6, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin ( anonymous ) says...
jazzslave an old time fireman once told me "The are no atheist's in a smokey hallway." someone else said about religion It couldn't Hurt.
February 6, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
In one post smoke states"gandi and mlk need to be taught in school" in another he post a link to the most anti semitic hoax ever.Plus he misspelled protocol and elders wrong.What a tool.Hey "Smoke" why dont you go smoke another bowl!
February 6, 2008 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Jazzslave,
I have been pro Israel for the better part of my life. Nothing there has changed. The one thing that I take issue with is illegal settlements not the legal ones. These are illegal under Israeli law. The justification for these settlements has always been a divine right. These zealots make up a very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution. They have also had terrorists among their ranks that kill innocent arabs. These folks do nothing to promote the peace that the majority of the Israeli population seek. Nor do I have any love for any palestinian or arab that takes up arms against Israel.
Thanks for the history lesson. It was so long ago that I was starting to forget. I remember it like it was yesterday, do you? Oh and by the way, please try to place me in with better company next time.
February 6, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
One more thing JS,
I sincerely appreciate your defense of Israel and your reaction to what you erroneously thought was an anti-semite post. If you knew me and my history, you would know just how absurd that would be. You did not offend me and I still respect you and your comments.
February 6, 2008 at 9:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
outsiderlookingin:
I'm not an atheist.
Hadleyburg_Press:
Actually, I interpreted your comments as more anti-Christian than anything else; and somewhat anti-Israel (not the same as anti-Semitic). You trash Christians whose support of Israel is rooted in scripture. You laud my support (presumably) because it isn't.
I DID misinterpret which settlements you were talking about, and with all due respect, it's a red herring. Israel has been very harsh with what you yourself characterize as "very, very small minority of the overall Jewish poplution." To trot them out as justification for Arab medieval bloodlust suggests a moral equivalence to which the "Palestinians" are not entitled. One might just as well countenance shooting up a church congregation because Eric Rudolph is a Christian.
If the Jewish extremists were to magically disappear tomorrow, nothing would change, and the Arab/Muslim/"Palestinian" barbarism would continue unabated.
February 6, 2008 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Jazzslave,
You and I agree and I apologize if my initial post was lazy and ambiguous. And no, I am not anti-christian nor anti-religious. I merely suggest that most things done in the name of religion carry us further away from God. Specifically dogmatic zealotry. Atleast that has been my personal experience and belief. Perhaps your experiences are different and for this I am greatful.
February 6, 2008 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin ( anonymous ) says...
jazzslave my bad I had to google agnostic to see the difference. See you learn something new everyday it was worth getting out of bed .
February 6, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
andymanout ( anonymous ) says...
Mary and Joseph! I have to say, the religious banter thrown about here is somewhat reminiscent of many a late night I spent in college. What I learned from all those sessions was this.
No individual or group has the right to insist any beliefs are the only possibly correct version of the truth. I can tell you what I believe and you can take it or leave it. The same goes for you.
Here in the U.S.A. everyone has the right to believe as they wish. As long as no harm is done, you can practice your beliefs. Here we not only allow it. We encourage it. This is not the case in far to many a nation. Here we let you live.
Faith is a choice every individual must make for themselves. It is not your faith if it is forced upon you.
I could not voice this opinion in downtown Baghdad in 2000 without fear of reprisals. The same could be said for places in Syria, Egypt, Iran,... This is true in many far away places that unfortunately most Americans will never see. Here its a right there its a liability. That lack of experience leaves room for doubt. Where theres doubt theres speculation. From that point on its a guessing game.
Jazz Slave
Ever since I learned about the six day war, I've been rooting for Israel. What the heck? I like the underdog. Especially when it's a badass underdog!
I picked the Giants too ;-)
February 7, 2008 at 12:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
blog thinks everyone should spend some time today outside praying to the god of POW!!
February 7, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
The word Bible is Greek for biblia, which means books. The Bible is comprised of 66 books written by 40+ authors over 1,600+ years. There are 24,000 manuscripts to authenticate the Bible. The Samaritan Pentateuch manuscripts contain every single word in the Hebrew Torah. Both are by rival peoples, but both accept their authenticity as the five books of Moses or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Dead Sea Scrolls validate many books and are some of the oldest preserved manuscripts in the world. Fact or fiction you decide.
Archaeologists will not find whole Bibles from earlier times because when the scribes finished copying the books they counted and verified every single letter. Once confirmed as an exact replica, the original manuscript was destroyed.
There are numerous versions of the Bible which make reading easier; but each stays true to the original text. 90% of the world has the complete Bible in its own language. The gospel of Mark is the most widely translated book in over 880 languages 97% of the world languages. These books are applicable as texts for history because over the 1,600 + years it took the authors to write them, they are all in perfect harmony with each other. The Bible is the most widely read, translated, and distributed book ever. Fact or fiction you decide.
As a Christian who highly esteems the Jewish faith, I would never force my beliefs or religion upon anyone. I am not a perfect person; I am just forgiven by our creator because I believe in Jesus. Not all of my friends believe as I do, yet I love them anyway. I once told a friend I have found the perfect pair of jeans that fit me and make my butt appear smaller, so I am going to tell you about them, where I got them, and how much they cost. It is up to you to try them on. I love the passion that spirituality evokes in all of us. I believe it is that way because we have an innate sense to worship a higher power. It is in all of us; what we do with it is up to all of us. I mean no disrespect to those who do not believe in what I believe, but the Bible is an authentic document. With a little faith I have experienced a life change in myself and my family. No one can prove 100% there is a God, but my life is a testimony for the joy and contentment He gives me when times are hard. I believe. My God has worked miracles in my life. Is it so wrong to believe in a God that restores faith and life even if I can't prove it? The Old Testament has many stories I do not understand, but I am not meant to be as smart as my God. I would not want to worship A god that was my equal. My God is sovereign, so I must wait till Heaven to understand many things I do not know now. Its OK its Faith. The wind blows and I cannot see it yet it is there I feel it. God exists and I cannot see Him, yet He is here I feel it. Faith is not a bad thing:.
February 7, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, you are in need of a lesson in human history. Most wars are not caused by 'religion' but what has been a basic human desire and need since Day One of man's appearance on Earth. People organize into groups then tribes then nations and when they reach a certain mass of population they require more territory to sustain their community, or in the case of nomadic groups they have used up all the material needed to feed themselves and their livestock.All the great early empires of antiquity, Greece, Egypt, Persia, China, Rome waged wars of conquest for the wealth and power that it brought, not for any 'religious' reasons. The Mongolians of Genghis Khan and his sons and grandsons are estimated to have killed more people through their conquests than any other up until the wars of the 20th century. The Mongolians were a nomadic empire and they waged wars and massacred millions because that's what nomadic nations did, not because of any religious imperative.
Outside of the Crusades and the spread of Islam, very few wars can be attributed to Religion. Most have been caused by greed and coveting what the folks across the next valley or river possess.
February 7, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
Yes, every one of us lives on stolen land.
freshair's creative spin on the history of this land, even if true, does not change the fact that this land was occupied, and we stole it amidst a campaign of genocide.
You dont need to feel guilty about it (i dont, but im not proud of it), you just need to admit its true and be consistent. If the Ute were to bomb the gondola maze on a powder day, or one of the free concerts in the summer, would you simply ask, "Well, how would you feel if your land was stolen" Assuming, of course, you were still around to ask anything at all.
Before you get too defensive, you should know that i agree with most of the content of most of your posts. I just thought this needed clarification.
Jazzslave
Your post is a thing of beauty. Excellent work.
February 7, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
Pray for Israel? What about our boys who were sent there to defend the holy land?
If you recall Saddam was launching scuds at Israel and it was Israel who so graciously held off restraint. Instead America got sucked into their war. We're still dieing for it and still paying for it and we can't even afford it.
I have no problem with Israel's desire to exist. It's the same with any nation or culture.
It's all but determined that there is going to be a "Great war" and the "chosen ones" will end up in Heaven right?
Sorry I don't see the destruction of the world for a chosen few worth praying for.
February 7, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog:
Do you suppose Hillary will resume her dialogue with Eleanor Roosevelt if she moves back into the white house?
February 7, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
sucker, my account of the history of the settlement of North America is no 'creative' spin. It is backed up by solid fossil and archaeological finds and is accepted by most academic and archaeological specialists. You obviously have a computer and with it access to all the data. Use it!
February 7, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, I accept your backfilling on 'Religious' wars as opposed to the great majority of armed conflicts. Religion certainly has its negative aspects but it has also contributed many positive aspects to the civilization of humankind. To single it out as the Great Satan is a sign that you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the anti-Religious cult. These people are mainly opposed to the Morality of Conduct which religion teaches. If you're homosexual or believe all drugs should be legal or believe abortion is ok under any circumstance or ultimately believe that all behavior is a matter of personal Choice and no business of any Government, then you see the source of all this 'imposed' morality, Religion, as a big negative to the the enjoyment of Life. So as there are many, many people in today's society who are for legalizing everything, all their attention and effort is mobilized against the force that is making their life more difficult than they want it to be------Religion.
February 7, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, you've got to give the full context behind the story. In Gen. 19:30-38, Lot's daughters incorrectly believed they were the only people to have survived the devastation . They assumed it was their responsibility to bear children and enable the continuation of the human race. That's an whole different can of beans than the part you chose to highlight.
February 7, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, you're taking an extraordinary morality-based stand there for someone who is so staunchly anti-Religious. Interesting position you've staked out--- Morality over survival of the Human Race.
February 7, 2008 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
theres a scene in the movie "munich" where Avner(the dedicated leader of the israeli hit squad) has a chance encounter with the leader of the palestinian hit squad. the ensuing conversation is both intense and poignant and leads to Avner's eventual unraveling. what he learns is that there really is not that big of a difference between the two, they both want essentially the same thing, simply put, a safe place to call home.
February 7, 2008 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Bloggy, yeah, a real touching 'moral equivalency' highlight. Only problem is, it never happened in Real Life and was a figment of the imagination of the notoriously anti-Israeli, pro-palestinian writer and playwright, Tony Kushner who wrote the film. And now you know the Real Story.
February 7, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
freshair- "however you want to define it, just as you cannot definitively prove the existence of a God(s), Super-Intelligence Life Form or Omnipotent Cosmic Universal Creator so also you can not disprove the possibility of such existing"
Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.
"Judaism and Christianity have extended religious freedom and tolerance and civil rights"
Only when forced to do so by atheistic (or, at most, agnostic or deistic) political leaders. Historically speaking, religions have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into not promulgating wars with each other. And I'm well aware of what's wrong with Islam and what living there is like. There's no need to point out how horrible it is.
seeuski- "people like you just don't believe that Jews have any rites[sic] to a homeland" People like me? Re-read my post. On second thought, considering your apparently dismal cognitive function, I'll save you the trouble and quote myself: "It's ridiculous in the extreme to use the Old Testament as the justification for a Jewish nation." I didn't say that the Hebrew people shouldn't live there. I said using the OT to justify it is somewhat ignorant, considering the OT is a litany of horrors inflicted *by* the Jewish people on the previous inhabitants. There are better arguments for Israel's existence than an appeal to ancient myth. As for how Joshua and company slaughtered so many of them, assuming the OT is historically accurate, I imagine the first verse I posted would've helped out. As anyone who's been in the military (such as myself) can attest, morale is an integral part of a unit's effectiveness. As word reached each of the city-states of the bloodthirsty invaders' approach, panic would've done half their job for them. No god required. And incidently, I was using the King James Version.
February 7, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
Faith- You are perfectly entitled to go through life believing in your god. If you require an invisible friend to face the truth of Nature's supreme indifference to humanity, I'll not kick the crutch out from under you. As for your argument for the Bible's veracity, see Hunterdog's post.
freshair- As Hunterdog noted, what an incredibly ignorant post of yours. Your misrepresentation of nonChristians is a prime example of a strawman argument. If you want to see morality outside any so-called holy texts, take a look here: http://www.secularhumanism.org
In any event, as seeuski has pointed out, this is 2008. Israel exists now, regardless of why. We need to move forward with diplomacy and intelligence, not try to shoehorn the modern world into old superstitions.
February 7, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
'Two words: Russell's teapot. We can't disprove a negative, but we can assign variables of probability. The probability of a god existing is infinitesimal.'
And here are two words for you 'Freshair's coffeepot'. You can play all the word-games you want, negatives, double-negatives, double-double negatives but the fact remains, and read this very slowly and try to remember, that which cannot be olbjectively proven cannot be objectively dis-proven.
There's a saying in Buddhism, 'the wise man knows he doesn't know.' Try and keep that in mind.
February 7, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyrett ( anonymous ) says...
Good gosh guys! They are just asking for prayers for Jerusalem. If you want to add your prayers to theirs, do it, and if you don't want to, don't. It's that simple. They aren't trying to convert you or push their beliefs off on anybody. Jerusalem is always in my prayers as are all the other troubled spots in this world.
February 7, 2008 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Jay-k, you do have a problem with reading Comprehension, don't you? If your ability to understand the English Language was up to the requirements necessary to engage in an intelligent discussion of this topic, it would already have been clear to you that the sum of my opinion is not that I believe in any God but that, outside of faith-based belief, there exists no objective evidence to support belief or non-belief.
February 8, 2008 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog, so please offer up your proof. Remember to cite the vastness of the known and unknown universe, comprising untold numbers of galaxies, containing untold numbers of suns, containing untold numbers of planets and explain to all of us who are not as smart as you the proof you possess that definitively rules out any basis for assuming the existence of a Superior Source of Cosmic Creation.
February 8, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
yesterday blog was leaving the post office, carrying a heavy package, trying to cross 3'rd street. there was allott of traffic and things looked bleak when, low and behold, cars stopped in both directions to allow blog to cross the street. talk about irrefutable proof of a divine being!
February 8, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Hunterdog-
Amazingly enough, you've also practically defined "Moral Equivlance," the last bastion of the hypocrite.
February 8, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, I've got a newsflash for you, you don't set the rules for what passes as incontrovertible proof based on your concept of 'logic.' I'm going to tell you one last time and hopefully it will penetrate that dense barrier you have adopted to shelter your entire bag of preconceptions. When the topic of discussion is the cosmos, the life upon it and the life which may or may not exist in other worlds, ordinary, everyday 'logic' which can be easily be put to practise when dealing with everyday situations and objects here on planet earth, is inapplicable. And as yet,there does not exist any mode of investigation which is sufficient to answer these age-old questions, there can be no definitive answer, no certainty, no finality.
To believe in the existence of a God, or Superior Intelligence, is taken on faith alone. And to deny the possibility of the existence of a God or Super Creative Intelligence, is also a faith-based position.
Clear your mind and rethink it. (:>)
February 8, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
I actually liked what you wrote, Hunterdog. I was raised Catholic and have moved on to Agnostic, in general.
The new show "Eli Stone" had a nice bit of wisdom when it premiered last week: (paraphrasing)
"There are 2 explanations to everything; scientific and spiritual. It's up to the individual which one to believe."
February 8, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
"There are 2 explanations to everything; scientific and spiritual. It's up to the individual which one to believe."
Yes, but its not up to the individual as to which one is an accurate reflection of the TRUTH. Anyone can believe anything they want, their belief has no bearing on reality.
Whatever happened to "Your entitled to your own opinion, your not entitled to your own facts"?
There used to be many explanations of this world, be it our location in the cosmos, disease, weather, etc. that were "spiritual". They have all been irrevocably debunked. This trend will continue.
February 8, 2008 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
Please pray for the men and women being blown to bits in Iraq defending the holy land.
February 8, 2008 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog,
You're pretty smart (and entertaining) for a damn ape!
February 8, 2008 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
suckerfree-
While I'm an agnostic, I also keep an open mind.
Here's one for you:
God created science and physics to keep humankind's curiosity occupied.
Disprove it.
Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can you, based on that theory, disprove it. When you die and can come back saying there is no Heaven or Hell...with pictures of just the black non-afterlife, then you are that much closer to proof.
Plus...there is still that Missing Link thing to worry about. There's also that Big Bang Theory. If there was nothing before the void, how could there be a Bang at all? No scientist can still give us PROOF; only theories.
Plus, humans are flawed beings. Humans practice science. Therefore, science is flawed.
Any other circles you want to go in?
February 8, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Kielbasa,
How about this one using the "logic" of religion. If the holy books foretell of the future, then that means that all events are predetermined. Ergo, no free will except for that of God. And yet, the individual may have free will, but the destiny of larger events is predetermined. Therefore, regardless of our actions and those of our enemies, we are forever trapped in an unfolding play where the script only matters locally in so much as it effects our own personal potential salvation. So, what we do personally is really just a selfish act of eternal self-preservation.
Logically then, Judas had no choice but to turn Jesus in. Was he still saved for participating in God's predetermined play?
February 8, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Can't answer that about Judas yet Hadley, but if I can lead others into specific answers thru my means (and I have done this plenty of times and others have also), I'm sure God would have no problem planning that far out. I'll ask when/if I get there and can come back.
Plus, religion is based on faith, as is logic in a roundabout way. I say that because we have faith that our logic is correct...and it may be on Earth. Earth is but 1 planet in a universe only thought to be finite...vast beyond comprehension, but still finite. We have no clue what lies beyond and how it will affect our sciences. Our science is very limited in scope since we can only apply it to Earth.
Even our Solar System, with all the other systems found with planets, doesn't seem to be the norm. More close-in gas giants and no true terrestrial planets found. There is no true way to even say carbon-based life forms are the norm, without evidence of life elsewhere. We're a very small speck of sand in Sahara-equivalent universe.
February 8, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Why would any Omnipotent Creator want to enable the life forms on planet earth with any means to definitively identify his existence? Much more entertaining to observe the human creature as he continues to grapple with that unanswerable question, 'What's it all about, Alfie?'. To reveal all at this point in time would be utterly pointless and bring to an end that wonderfully entertaining Petri dish we know as planet Earth.
The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the
epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes.
February 8, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
freshair- I don't think anyone can explain God. When you're omnipotent/omniscient, what do you do for kicks? Scrabble probably isn't much fun. Same thing as "What do you get for the person who has everything?" One way I like to look at it? We are God's "Sim City" or "The Sims" for his computer. If you've ever played it, you start by guiding the game, but eventually, it can run on it's own to a degree. You still throw in stuff to keep it from getting boring, though. Maybe that's why God doesn't interfere as much: we're starting to run on autopilot. Now, God just throws the occassional disaster at us just to keep it interesting.
Look at our imagination as humans: we write science fiction every day to the point the science looks like magic, and then we make it happen. The original Star Trek had hand held, wireless communicators. Now, we have cell phones. Jules Verne wrote "From the Earth to the Moon" in 1865...104yrs prior to Apollo 11 and 38yrs before the Wright Brothers in 1903.
Were it possible (and it might be someday) to time travel to the past, say even to the 15th Century, a common lighter or flashlight would be considered witchcraft. Our science today would be "magic" from a person with otherworldly powers to people of that era. Same thing if you saw a person truly disappear before your eyes, with no slight of hand: just "blip" and they're gone- no close the door on the box, throw a sheet over it. That would be teleportation- a scientific impossiblity at this time. While we could understand the concept, I think it would still freak a person out because we know it to be impossible at this time.
So maybe God is a the epitome of living things, for them to aspire when they've developed enough. Until then, why give up the secrets? Magicians don't.
February 8, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Who was Jewish?
Mary, Joseph,Jesus,Apostles,Disciples,Partiarchs, plus the Bible was written from the Torah by Jewish people.
Why support Israel?
G-d called Israel the apple of His eye.Said His name would be forever be in Jerusalem. Told Abramham, Issac and Jacob(Jewish) their seed would be blessed and that Israel would be theirs in a covenent thru G-d forever. G-d never breaks covenent. He promised he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.
Why is the Bible full of adultery,murders,killing of innocent children and liars?
The stories and parables are much like everyday life here today to prove no matter what you have done no matter how horrific ,anyone can be forgiven. G-d said all have sinned and fallen short.We are equally sinners. Paul was a murderer but later wrote most of the New Testament.
Is there proof G-d exists? The veil of blindness to G-d does not start to inch up until by free choice you have excepted Him into your heart and life. He said no one comes unto the Father without excepting the Son(Jesus). However Messiah(Jesus) has not been revealed to all yet. G-d reveals himself when it is divinely time to all. Thats why its important to allow others to worship or not worship in freedom. He works with all of us but not at the same cookie cutter pattern of understanding.
What proof is there locally G-d exists?
20 mile coal hired a contractor to dig a mine air shaft 1500 ft. down for miners to install fans. This was about 1-2 years ago. At the near bottom was 4 ft. snail shells from Noahs flood.
What proof is there anytime someone stomps Israel something happens?
The Steambot Pilot about 2-3 months ago had article about Washington,D.C. meeting at White house to give Israels land to Palestine. The meeting was Mon.,Tues.,Wed., by Thurs. morning one of the U.S. oil pipelines that carries approx. 20% of our oil busted. Check out national archives for yourself about what happens as soon as anyone does anything negative to Israel. It is easy to prove and follow.
February 8, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahyX1J...
February 8, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
andymanout ( anonymous ) says...
Simply my opinion;
You can not posses a thing when your hands are made from dust. You existence is on loan. Take care,
I'll leave it at that.
February 8, 2008 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Virgin Birth
Somehow, a solitary female shark in captivity has given birth: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live...
Johnny Cochran is dead, so we can't blame him.
February 9, 2008 at 12:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
blog was raised at a school where you had to study the bible. whenever blog questioned anything, such as ' this stories incomplete. where are all the missing pages?'. blog would get reprimanded, almost to the point of being ostracized. one of blogs 'kinder' instructors said it was simply a matter of faith. blog began to wonder if religion was a tool to help people evolve or a means to control and manipulate. so blog began to study more, learned about the egyptians, the ethiopians, the greeks and the far east. so many different powerful civilizations, all with different belief structures. it was mind-boggling. who was right? which god was the true god? years later blog was fortunate enough to sit with a Hopi elder who offered blog this piece of wisdom. religion is the instruction manual for man. all the different nations of the earth form the spokes of a great wheel. all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual'.
February 9, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
You read the bible with out comprehending it. Noah didn't fit every specie on the Ark. G-d said two of every kind. So you bring on two dogs. The species is in the genetic code of those two dogs. There is no need to bring in every variation of birds , just the basic kinds of birds that will contain all the variations that will come out after the flood is over. Fish were not on the Ark. G-d destroyed all life on earth that had the breath of life. Fish don't breath air and they certainly had plenty of water. The quantity of water is not an issue. Read Genisis 1, 6-8. The earth had water under it and in the atmoshpere above it. In Genisis 7:11, G-d broke open the fountains of the deep and opened the windows of heaven. The weight of the earth above this large body of water squirted the water out. The subsidence of the earth into the parts occupied by water also created todays landscape. The surface area of the earth preflood was greater than the surface area below it. So as the earth collapsed into the void it had to fault and tilt creating mountain ranges and valleys. Look close at road cuts through the continental divide the layers of earth are standing on end. Those snails? There were clams with them too. Everyone was complete. Both halves and they were all closed. If they died a natural death the mouths would have opened from decomposition and only the various halves would have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls support the Bible authenticity. The argument that flood stories as early as 1600 bc means the Bible copied from others is wrong. The Biblical flood was way before that.
There is free will. One needs to step back and look at things objectively and look hard at the things they are against and for. Otherwise one allows the twisted words of others to ensnare them. The Bible does make astounding statements, but with steady searching comes understanding. I'm not afraid to look at arguments for and against G-d and His Word. You give up free will when you close your eyes. Hunter, you are zealous for your position,I respect that, just be careful you are not some ones puppet.
February 9, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twostroketerror ( anonymous ) says...
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
February 9, 2008 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
bloggy, I'm afraid if your Hopi 'wise' man actually uttered the words 'all the spokes must be in place for the wheel to be complete and in balance and 'white man seems to of lost their manual', he was a 'wise' man in name only. Generalizations are the products of incomplete understanding. Using his method of analysis it could be said that American Indians have failed to adapt to modernity and that is the reason for their very high levels of alcohol and drug abuse, spousal abuse and the disintegration of their tribal cultures.
All belief systems, whatever they call themselves, whatever their ritual, all spring from the same source in human consciousness. The unique characteristics of each are a product of the distinct regions of the world where they first began. Learn to look deeper than superficial names and one day, hopefully, you will understand and recognize the Unity underlying all belief in a Greater Power.
February 9, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Hunterdog: What caused the big bang?
February 9, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Twostroke:
You are right. G-d did say to kill them all. In fact read all of chapter seven. Not only shall you kill them, but also destroy their altars, images and cut down their groves. Vs.25 "The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it on to thee, lest thou be ensnared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy G-d." The land they were entering was already promised to them many years before because G-d made a contract with Abraham for it and He also said Abraham's descendants (Israelites, the Jewish people)would posses it. Verse seven also proclaims their choseness. If the Jewish people had absorbed the culture already in the land it would have destroyed them. Worshipping gods that did not bring them out of Egypt would be denying their salvation from bondage in Egypt. Consider Numbers 22. Balaam couldn't curse the Jewish people like the king asked him to. Later on in Numbers 31:16 Balaam got the Israelis to destroy themselves by counseling the women of the land to invite the men of Israel to come to their parties and at their parties they worshipped false gods, they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator. You might be saying this is a bunch of hooey, but consider this. When you have an addiction it is a falso god you are enslaved to. You alter your world so you can drive by the cigar store to keep stocked up on cigarettes. You are willing to change your lifestyle because you are not willing to do without the nicotine or alcohol. It gets so bad you can't control it. It controls you and destroys you. You let your baby cry the night away in hunger pains because you spent your last dough on your next fix. It destoys you and the next generation (the baby). See how smokers break the addiction. Cold turkey is hard. So many stop smoking and start chewing tobacco. Then quit chewing to chew gum. Then sunflower seeds. Sometimes a worse addiction is picked up in place of smoking. Look at Matthew 12:43-45. Jesus cites a spiritual example of addictions. The important thing here is when you clean yourself (the house in Vs. 44) you must place G-d there to keep it clean. That spirit will come back with friends and you will be worse off. Any false god can be placed there, but only G-d can save you from the things you do,but hate, when you are under the false gods. When you accept Jesus into your life as Lord and Savior He will bring these addictions before you like Deuteronomy 7:22-26. Little by little you will destroy them. The addictions, the false gods, the things that destroy your life and the family around you. Don't leave one liquor bottle alive (a type of graven image spiritually speaking). You will stumble across it one day and there is a good chance to be sucked in again. Make no treaty with them, show no mercy.
February 9, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, when it comes to pondering the mystery of creation and considering scenarios, you are presently splashing around the wading pool. Here's hoping someday you're ready for Deeper Water. (:>)
February 9, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Hey Hunter! Come on down to the Deep end, the flood, I mean water, is just fine.
Using physical evidence outside the Bible to support statements in the Bible is not circular reasoning.
I understand your hesitation to discuss freewill. Please feel free to discuss it when ever you feel more comfortable.
Where did all that water go? Your looking at it. The earth was relatively flat pre-flood. There was no Mt. Everest, but note that sea shells and other marine life does exist in the rock formations on the Everest mountain range. Think of an egg. Now put another egg inside it with about an eight inch between the inner shell and outer shell and the void between the two shells occupied by water. Now fracture the outer shell. The outershell like the earth has to respond to gravity, it must collapse onto the surface of the inner eggshell. This collapse also must obey simple math. The surface area of the outer shell is greater than the inner shell and must buckle and crumple as it subsides onto the smaller area. Look at a global map of topography showing mountain ranges on land and undersea. Many of these faults/fractures are where the fountains of the deep are in Genesis7. The flat low lying areas like plains, seabeds were the hydraulic piston forcing the water to the faults and fractures then up out and onto the earth. If you flatten the earth all the water out there now would cover our heads by more than a mile.
The Egyptians came after the flood. Yes the pyramids went through the flood and post flood societies gather around these monuments today. Strange how the sphinx has water erosion and the Great Pyramid in its internal passages tells the story of the Redeemer (Jesus) and His people.
Ice cores in Greenland? This helps to explain the windows of heaven in Genesis 7. Look at Genesis 1:6-7 There was water below the earth and above the earth. This frozen canopy of water at the edge of our atmosphere is what fell to earth when "the windows of heaven were opened". (yes chicken little the sky is falling) So suddenly the mist under this canopy is exposed to the cold edges of space and turns to rain and snow. Greenland and the poles are areas that still exist today where the snow and ice accumulated and is still melting today. There will be no sediment in the ice because it landed over a 150 day period. Not millions of years.
February 9, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
How did all the animals get to their places after the flood? They walked of course or flew. As the valleys fell and the mountains raised, the water collected in low areas. Many land bridges were available to the Americas, Australia, various islands and the animals and people spread out. You know family visits stink after three days, imagine being on the same cruise ship for a year. hmph! So they spread out and multiplied and got to all these islands and places that favored their particular kind and later species. Don't forget all the ice and snow that fell out of the sky its still melting and sea levels are rising cutting off land bridges not just to north America but also Indonesia, Australia etc. That also explains strange structures and roads just off the coasts of some nations under water. They were built post flood but before the ice melt cut off land bridges.
The last argument on recessive traits, DNA, genetics is simple. G-d made the original document Adam and beautiful bride Eve along with all the creatures in the earth, plants too!
Then they all went forth and multiplied (Stick the original document in the copier and copy away). Then we listened to the devil and so we threw away the original document. We said "the devils right "we can be like gods" We then took the copies we made and made a copy of a copy. Then we made a copy of that copy, on and on. How does this fit in? Adam and Eve were perfect genetic documents and the first couple of copies we made were pretty good. The flood being roughly 1500 years from Adam there would not be enough genetic defects to run afoul of inbreeding problems with only two mating pairs. Even today my good ol'e public school taught me that for a space colony on Mars or the moon only 250-350 diverse people would be needed to maintain genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding. Not bad for only 4500 years between us and the flood.
Since were talking genetics what if we eventually clone a person and that baby grows and attends public school. Then later on that child goes to biology class and is taught evolution. In class the child raises there hand and asks the teacher "Did I evolve or was I created?"
Hey what about the heavens? Did you know that the Bible is written in the sky? The stars and their constellations proclaim the glory of G-d! Thanks to reading Jimmy Westlake's sunday articles on astronomy and the stories to the stars I've started to develop a keen interest in Orion, Sirius, Hydra etc. As I dig deeper and clean off the dirt the world has covered this area of the Bible with I realize G-d has given his evidence to the whole world. Why is it that many ancient cultures built temples on hill tops with starcharts included? They were tracking G-d's prophecies declared in the heavens!
February 9, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
armchairqb ( anonymous ) says...
Now I know what they mean by the old saying "you can't argue politics or religion" And if anyone is keeping track
it's accepted and not excepted.
February 9, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter
Ball is in your court on freewill awaiting your return.
Dead Sea Scrolls were just one of the many pieces of evidence I cited to you.
Katrina happened the same week as Israel was forced to vacate Gaza.
Carbon dating has huge failure rates. Nobody reports them they just keep running the tests until an agreeable result is spit out. No one tells you about the day old dead seal carbon dated over a thousand years?
I enjoyed your diatribe on atmospheric pressures. It helps one to understand how people in the preflood earth lived so long. You are aware of the long term benefits of using the bariatric chamber to help the body heal.
What is JW Christianity? I've never heard that one.
Somewhere G-d said that in becoming wise they became fools.
February 9, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Come on Hunterdog, everyone knows that god placed all of these fossil records and contradictory stuff around as false props to test our faith. In fact, I think you must be one of them.
Oh yes and one more thing, if god smotes those that mess with Israel, why do we need to pray for Israel as the original commentator suggested? Must have something to do with god's free will.
Now as for those bananas, should they be blended with any one of god's fine spirits or do you want them straight up?
Damn dirty apes...
February 9, 2008 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Hunterdog: post how you like, otherwise you'll look like the Bore, and that's a mighty ugly creation, there.
I still stand by my post a couple of days ago: while nobody can prove there is a God, nobody can disprove it, either. Just because someone doesn't come to the witness stand doesn't negate existence. How else is everything created from nothing? Science may never solve mystery of the Big Bang...Theory, I believe it's called; meaning "unproven."
There's still that missing link to account for, also.
February 9, 2008 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
What local evidence again says He is real?
-K-Love radio and Air One locally. Try for yourself playing it one hour and write down how the strange anointing brings on a feeling of goodwill and peace.Then sample satanic music and write down and notice how the core of you really feels.
-Also locally Skyangel.com is available 14.00 mo.? thru Dish T.V.. Has most all religions to sample. Jewish,Catholic, Lutheran,Latter Day Saints(Morman),7th Day Adventist, Christian, Baptist and many others. Has family progams and various languages of music. Sample life do not be stagnant,we are all Bro/Sis.
Did Jesus leave any physical evidence behind for us?Yes. Said I leave the Holy Spirit to comfort you. For those that know him its usually discribed as chills that start or warmness. Euphoria of love for all thats not earthly. Sometimes comes as a tear of joy for those that do not yet know him while listening to singing or words said about Him .
Where's the proof miracles and Divine healing happen today?
Locally watch Benny Hinn. Visit all the various Churches and Synagogues easy to see for yourself and not hearsay.
Why are religious folks blasted as ignorant?
G-d said that they become like little children(The Kings Kids). This is because they are clay in the Potters hands.Notice the next time how full of glee they are. Giddy, shocked at how they love others so much,cannot hardly believe totally all of their sins are removed forever. Some of their words heard are "theres no high like the Most High". To the world they seem like fools because by choice the veil of knowledge only starts to raise for those that except him into their hearts and not those who reject him.
Who can come to the Father? He said whosoever. Don't let those around you rob what is freely yours. Unfortunately some are teaching those with certain lifestyles they are not allowed. This in return has caused those precious folks to feel they have no worth. So in return they attack anything religious. Bro/Sis Come as you are. You are no less loved. He created each of us equally. He alone works with us in forming all of us in His image.
Something that gives me great comfort is He promised to never leave or forsake us.I can say for fact this is the truth.
February 9, 2008 at 11:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
I used to cry euphorically when I watched Benny Hill. Does that count?
February 9, 2008 at 11:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
upon returning home from skiing, blog had a message from sister mary ellen moffat(one of blogs grade school instructors). she said blogs 'posts' were disturbing and insisted blog come straight down to the convent to see her. she made blog write "i will not talk like a heretic" 100 times on the blackboard, all the while wailing on blog with a ruler. ouch!! she also said blog should leave the political and religious debates to smart people and stick to things blogs little pea brain can understand, like skiing or eating bacon. so blogs off to ski in the sunshine and until the pilot writes an article on the merits of bacon... blogs out.
February 10, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
How about this. Please pray for America. We're in massive debt yet we ship more of our American tax dollars to Jerusalem/Israel than any other nation. What has Jerusalem done for us lately?
February 10, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
Sheesh, I don't come here often enough to keep up with the shifting conversations.
freshair- It appears you did not understand my allusion. Google "Russell's teapot" and read up on it, please. When you understand the allegory, then get back to me.
kielbasa- "God created science and physics to keep humankind's curiosity occupied. Disprove it. Just as I can't prove God exists, neither can you, based on that theory, disprove it."
It seems to me that the word "theory" gets bandied about pretty often, but not everyone understands it. A theory (in the scientific sense) is a logical framework for understanding observed phenomena. Claiming "god" did anything at all is not a theory, because it isn't testable. In that sense, it isn't even a hypothesis, as it's impossible to evaluate the merit of the claim. As far as the "Big Bang" goes, asking what came before it is pretty much the same as asking what lies north of the North Pole. Time and space did not exist (for anything to happen within) before the Big Bang; therefore, it's a meaningless question. And asking what caused it is also meaningless, as causality is an attribute of time.
As far as categorizing me thus: "The strident denial of possibility of a Cosmic Creator, besides signalling[sic] an inability to think out-of-the-box, is also the epitome of someone firmly trapped by conventional attitudes", I'll reiterate that I believed in a god for over twenty years. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. It was thinking *outside* that box that enabled me to break free of the "conventional attitudes" of our society's faith in a god. Your logic is rather twisted if you believe atheists to be narrow-minded. Trust me on that; I was a good little Christian for a very long time... I *know* what narrow-mindedness is.
JazzSlave- Your reference to parthenogenesis is irrelevant to the Christian myth of a virgin birth. Had it even been possible for Mary to have done so (which has never been observed naturally in any mammals), Joshua (the English form of Hebraic "Yeshua", a common name for which "Jesus" is the Greek translation) would've been a female, anyway.
As for seven's posts... wow. Just... wow. Talk about the holes in someone's logic. There are so many scientific errors in that, I'm rather in Hunterdog's position... where to start? Meh... I'm not even going to bother. I will note, however, that your feelings when listening to Christian music does not constitute "physical evidence" that the music's lyrics are valid. If there were mile-high letters on the moon saying "Jesus was here", that might be physical evidence.
I do concur with sbvor on this, though. When quoting someone else verbatim, it *is* proper to state your sources.
February 10, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
The adamant belief or lack of belief in a Superior Cosmic Creative Intelligence without acknowledging the possibility that either or none could be correct, is the hallmark of Conventional thinking. So Hunter, that dog of yours won't hunt. By going from belief to non-belief, you have simply moved 180 degrees in the same enclosed circle. You need to step outside the circle.
February 10, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
JayK-
the*o*ry /Ë Î,iÉri, Ë Î,ÉÉri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, plural -ries.
1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.
Don't see anything there that says a theory has to be testable. Plus, a lot of theories take time before they are testable. Evolution on Earth is tested...but we still have a gap in our species evolution. How is that tested with nothing to fill that gap. See below.
God, as a theory, works quite well. Otherwise, the whole Earth, life itself and especially logic are all some coincidence. I stand by my statement. I can't prove it and you can't disprove it. That's what faith is all about: you have faith that science limited by the thought process of 1 species is correct and yet you still haven't (neither has science) provided us with that whole missing evolutionary link. That been a stumper for over a century.
Jules Verne wrote about rockets being jet propelled before jet fuel or even powered flight had been tested, but that was just fiction and not even a theory, right? How long before that "fiction" was tested as theory to land on the moon? 100yrs. Does that negate what he imagined?
And the Theory of Relativity: it's still a theory overall, almost a century later. It's been tested but still not proven. Does that negate it also?
Maybe we can't test the Theory of God...yet. It's not time...yet. So look at the time those took. I would expect that God is a little more complex so proving God takes more time. Until then, people have faith in that theory...just as science has faith in the Theory of Relativity.
To paraphrase George Carlin: These are our rules; we make'em up...because we haven't found someone higher to dispute them...yet.
February 10, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
While we're on the subject of Relativity and Einstein, it is interesting to know what he thought about creation. Einstein recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. He firmly denied atheism and believed in a Creator who, in his own words, "reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." Einstein's famous statement on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice", and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
February 10, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
freshair- I think you've confused me with Hunterdog, though we share the same viewpoint. I understand your (and kielbasa's) position. I really do. You're both agnostic, leaning towards deism (the belief in a sort of Grand Engineer, who set up the laws of the universe and is just letting them play out). Agnosticism was particularly attractive to me when I first began questioning my religious views. It held out at least a hope for there to be a Creator, and an afterlife, and that there was some grand purpose for my (and everyone else's) existence. But I suppose I'm too rational for that viewpoint to stick. There just isn't any empirical evidence for a deity and I can't believe in the objective existence of something for which there is no objective evidence.
kielbasa- Please note that I used the term theory "in the scientific sense." The dictionary does not precisely give a definitive take on words... it gives their usage. People misuse words all the time, but in this case (the scientific sense) the word "theory" is very specific. As per Wiki, "In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation, and general relativity." A statement about whether a deity does anything is not testable. Therefore, it's not a theory (or hypothesis). A statement about whether an apple will fall when dropped is testable. When you understand what I mean by "theory" then you'll find your argument for a deity theory doesn't hold up.
February 10, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
As for the "Missing Link", I believe you're making a "God of the Gaps" argument. Essentially, that's an argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Because scientists haven't yet found the shared ancestor of modern apes and man, your argument is that there isn't one. Unfortunately for you, though the fossils haven't yet been found, the 1.5% difference in DNA between humans and chimpanzees weighs against your argument.
As far as Jules Verne goes, I've read "From the Earth to the Moon" and he never tried to claim a god transports his astronauts there; he also did not use jet propulsion. He used known scientific principles of his day (gunpowder explosives, cannon, muzzle velocity, etc.) to form the underlying premise: an enormous cannon shoots a giant hollow bullet with people in it to the moon. Likewise, space travel today does not require a deity for its operations. In addition to this, thinkers from past generations have always speculated on what might be possible (Leonardi da Vinci's helicopter, for instance). None of their proposed ideas have required a deity for them to work.
"And the Theory of Relativity: it's still a theory overall, almost a century later. It's been tested but still not proven. Does that negate it also?" It seems you still don't understand what a scientific theory *is* and I'm not sure how else to try explaining it to you.
February 10, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
freshair- You want to trade Einstein quotes? Try these:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"[The sense of] a spirit manifest in the laws of the Universe... does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image--a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being."
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure of the former."
When asked if religion promotes peace: "It has not done so up to now."
February 10, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Bore- Your links (pun intended) still quote "theory." There is still nothing that "links" them to any other known species at the time. A 160,000 year old Homo Sapien evolved from...a theory to other species. Still no definitive prove, factchild. Go back and find that new handle you'll need soon.
For JayK- Human DNA shares many similarities with many non-chimp animals, also. Chimps just have the closest, but what was once thought of only a 1% difference a few years ago, is widened to about 4% difference, depending on the source material. What those online references also state is that chimps and humans share a same ancestor...but not how or why the divergence came about. It did NOT say we were descended from chimps. Can we attribute that to a Monolith floating about? Wouldn't that have been "God" to a primitive being? Again- while research closes in on narrowing it down...it still hasn't completely.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/2...
"Humans and chimps each have some 3 billion base units of DNA in their genomes, differing by only 1.2 percent when compared in this way. Other methods of comparison estimate a genetic difference of at most 4 percent."
So 1.2% or up to 4% difference. Scientists don't even completely agree yet, depending on the method. Now, apply that to the ever-changing age scientists give the universe. Back in Jr High, we were told about 20 Billion. Now, were told the estimate is closer to 14 Billion. New science may discover even younger...or that the divergence between chimps and humans gets wider.
To use your own statement:
"Because scientists haven't yet found the shared ancestor of modern apes and man, your argument is that there isn't one."
Now, let's change a word or two:
"Because scientists haven't yet found the Creator of man, your argument is that there isn't one."
As for scientific theory...you're saying "scientific." Theories are not limited to science alone, but are used in every day life, by all of us.
If you believe science journals, why not the Bible? Plenty of accounts of being in the presence of an Almighty being in there. If someone calls it fiction, well, we go back to Jules Verne. For Da Vinci, a helicopter design is fine...but it wasn't fuel powered. Verne's was, no matter what the type of combustion was used.
WHAT gave those 2 people (and the rest of humankind) the ability to reason and use logic over any other creature in order to come up with the imagination to do these things? Evolution...fine...but evolution still didn't explain the divergence. Maybe in time, but maybe it will determine that there was a God. Is a scientist to narrowminded to rule out what they haven't seen?
February 10, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Jay-K, anyone who understands anything of what Einstein wrote and said on the subject of a Creator, knows that while he did not believe in a 'personal' god, his referencing to 'god' in all of his published writings always refers to a Cosmic Creative Force. Not the anthropomorphic creation but the more non-specific and ethereal Formless and Nameless Cosmic Creative Intelligence.
February 10, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
JayK-
20 questions time.
Do you believe in life outside of Earth?
February 10, 2008 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
armchairqb ( anonymous ) says...
I thought someone once said Everything you'll ever need to know was learned in Kindergarten . They didn't teach this stuff at the 1/2 day kindergarten I went to . Maybe I missed out , where do you guys get this stuff.???
February 10, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
armchairqb- That's the question exactly: where do we get this stuff? LOL! Everyone will give you a different answer, depending on their own beliefs.
February 10, 2008 at 10:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mcminsteamboat ( Marie Matta ) says...
In the vociferous debate above about belief in God, the Bible and religion, or the absence thereof, I fear that two glaring issues arising from the Hustons' letter have been ignored:
1) Their view of peace in the Middle East provides only for a win/lose scenario whereby Israel is considered the only deserving winner and everyone else loses.
2) They apply a "fire and brimstone" religious faith to justify their negative position, but they do not represent the majority of "people of faith" who believe in a merciful and peace-loving God, not in invoking God's name to condone inequality and conquest.
I do not believe there will be peace in the Middle East as long as Israel holds all the cards, until Israel recognises that the Palestinians have the right to a compassionate and just solution, and until a deal where there is a win for every party is negotiated.
I am originally from Lebanon and I look forward to the day when all the countries of the Middle East can celebrate the common elements of their history, culture and religion in peace and can share in the potential prosperity of this ancient and beautiful part of the world. I don't have the blueprint for achieving this ambitious goal but I remain hopeful that it will happen in my lifetime.
February 10, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
mcminsteamboat, keep in mind, if the arabs at any point since 1948 'held all the cards', there wouldn't be an Israel. When your country is under constant attack as the Israelis have been for the past 60 years you are forced to adopt security measures. The fact is the arabs have steadfastly refused to accept the right of the jewish people to re-establish a nation in the ancient homeland. This is rooted entirely in the muslim idea of the entire Middle East as the Dar al Islam, Lands of Islam, whereby it is mandated in their religion that only muslims may rule in this region. But as a Lebanese, I'm sure you know this.
February 11, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter, the first terror attacks were committed by the arabs in the 1920-21. Why bother to state selective 'facts' when you are either ignorant or deliberately omitting the whole story? The Jews would have been happy to share the land with the arabs, and many arabs, including King Faisal of TransJordan welcomed their return and saw it as an oportunity for the local arabs to benefit from the development that the Jews would, and did, build throughout what is now Israel. Unfortunately, then as now, the Fundamentalist muslims were the real power and they, as they do today, were against any non-muslim presence in the Middle East. The irony is that if the arabs had accepted the UN partition of 1947 they would have ended up with a larger state than they now claim. There's a lot of history involved in this conflict and before you start citing your 'opinion' make sure you know all of it.
February 11, 2008 at 12:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
The point is, Hunter, that you chose to single out the israelis without providing a historical chronology of terror attacks which clearly show that the first terror attacks and massacres dating from 1920-21 were committed by arabs against jews. So what exactly are you trying to accomplish by condemning the Israelis for defending their population without putting their actions in the context of the historical record?
February 12, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
summerbird ( anonymous ) says...
HUNTERDOGGEREL:
You are so dogmatic!
February 12, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
This is all so funny.
So-called "creation scientists" try to find scientific explanations for biblical phenomena (including creation) to prove they are right.
Faith proves you're right. Nothing else is required.
Faith is like love. It comes from within, and you can recognize it in a heartbeat if you have it. Ever try to make yourself love somebody because it would be convenient, but you just can't make it happen? Ever try to stop loving somebody because it's inconvenient? People who have Faith feel the same upwelling of love when they hear the name of Jesus that a mother feels when she joyfully greets her child coming home from school. The difference is like that old, "I love you, but I'm not IN love with you," thing that so many of us have heard, or spoken, at various times in our lives. There is a difference, and you can feel it.
The proof of Biblical prophecy is when it comes true. The coming of The Messiah was prophesied by Isiah, and Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Isiah also prophesied the reestablishment of Israel.
Evangelical Christians "need" the book of Revelations to come true to affirm their faith. Many believe that we are in the "end days" because of the prophecies contained in Revelations. The Second Coming of Christ is a way to get out of this life without actually dying, and people cling to the hope that they and their families will be spared the pain of death.
It is said, and I believe it, that the reason Christianity survived in the time of the Romans was that Jesus' followers saw him alive after he was crucified, and witnessed his ascension into the clouds. People who saw these things KNEW, by believing their own eyes, that there is Salvation in Jesus and life after death. Had it not been for a hard-corps (sic) of believers, Christians would have perished under the harsh hands of the Roman emperors and we'd all be pagans today.
By the way, the whole Jewish thing is that if you follow all the rules, you go to Heaven. Jesus changed all that, so that people are saved by Faith, and not by adherence to the laws handed down to Moses by God. Christians who truly study the Old Testament do so to understand the role of prophecy, to underpin the prophecies which predict the Second Coming. Mathematicians do this very same thing by proving theorems based upon derivations from first principles. In other words, they do it to convince themselves that what they believe to be true is really true.
(continued below)
February 12, 2008 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Anyway, the bottom line is that if the Biblical prophecies are true, then they're going to come true, and we cannot change them or hurry them along for our convenience. So, stop worrying about them and go about your life in the way your heart tells you to live. It is prophesied that Christ will not come again until the Gospel has been spread throughout the entire world, and this is one of the reasons we see missionaries going out to attempt to convert pagans. The scriptures also say that not all people will be converted, so don't look for that to happen either.
Some day, somewhere in India or China, some kid is going to hear a missionary preach the Gospel in his own language, and that will be IT! And how do we account for the new one being born next door, or 10,000 miles away who has not heard?
Seems to me, live births would have to come to a halt some time before the Second Coming can occur.
So I'll be watching for the global birthrate to drop to zero, and then I'm going to max out all my credit cards.
February 12, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog, your entire body of comment is
non gradus anus rodentum. And those are my last words to you on this or any other subject.
February 12, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog those like Freshair and others that for fact know the King of all Kings ,also know greater is He that lives in me than He that lives in the world. Therefore to try to taunt him out as if this is a game is foolish.
By your own comments the projection is you have not found God but are trying. Therefore the rest of us are more than happy to give you the tools and information. We can lead a horse to water but we cannot make him drink.
The following are historical facts on Israel
Arabs began to repopulate the land only after the Jews reclaimed it and the land began to propsper. No nation in the region has a longerstanding historic claim to the land than Israel. Saudi Aarabia was not created until 1913;Lebannon,1920:Iraqa1932;Syria,1941:Jordon,1946;and Kuwait,1961.
Israel has a historic right to the land. Israel existed as a nation until the time of the Roman Empire. Even after the dispersions of A.D. 70 and A.D. 135, a strong Jewish presence remained. The Turks took control 7 hundred years ago and ruled until they were defeated by the Great Britian in World War I as allies of the Germans. British Field Marshall Edmond Allenby took Jerusalem w/o firing a shot. Grateful for the contributions Jewish scientists and businessman had made to the war effort, Britian promised in 1917 to set aside certain captured lands(all present day Israel and Jordon) for a Jewish homeland. There was no outcry over the plan because the land was concidered worthless, unable to sustain any sizable population.
Since its independence in 1948, Israel has fought 4 wars: the War for Independence(1948-1949); the 1956 War,th Sinai Campaign; the Six Day War in 1967; and the Yom Kippur War in 1973. In all four cases, Israel was attacked. They were never the aggressor. Against impossible (God?) odds they won all four wars.
Israel is a marvel (God?) of modern agriculture. She has brought more food out of a desert than any other land. The Arabs should befriend Israel, import Israel technology, and make the Middle East, like Israel, a food exporter.
February 12, 2008 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Nice rationally stated post id04sp.
February 12, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
kielbasa- You can toss out ideas all day about the cause of human consciousness (which is really what split us off the evolutionary branch from which modern apes descended)... from alien monoliths (per the classic sci-fi novel, Arthur C. Clarke's "2001: A Space Odyssey") to the souls of aliens blown up by the galactic lord Xenu (per L. Ron Hubbard), from a universal field of intelligence (per Deepak Chopra) to free will as a gift from a personal god (per most religions). I can guess that it was really an Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves) who taught early hominids to harness fire, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster stretched forth a noodly appendage and made us self-aware. But really, the only testable idea is the theory of consciousness being an emergent property of the complex interactions of neurons (per most neurologists). The fact of the matter is, we really don't know why we're conscious, or how we got this way, but science offers us the best hope of finding out. There's no evidence pointing in any other direction, despite all the imaginary ways we can come up with. Scientists aren't narrow-minded in doubting a deity's interference in evolution, when there's no reason to pursue the inquiry.
As for why I don't believe the Bible... have you actually read it? Cover to cover? I have. I don't believe it for a lot of reasons... but instead, why do *you* believe it's true, and not any number of other mutually exclusive "holy" texts? Why is the Bible true, but not the Koran? Or the Venas and Upashinads of Hinduism, which are even older than the Hebrew Torah? Why isn't the Buddhavacana true? They can't all be true, because they all declare they're the only true text. And that's only a few of the holy texts still in use... there are any number of old texts for dead religions that no one credits anymore. Why aren't any of them true? You begin to see my point? If all of them claim to be true, and all of them claim every other one is false, logic dictates they're most likely all false (especially as there's no convincing argument that any of them are true). In most cases, it's only the ideological background of a person that determines his/her religion. Basically, you believe what your parents tell you is true, but that's an appeal to authority, and is a logical fallacy.
February 12, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
kielbasa- As for your question of whether I "believe in life outside of Earth", I think I know where you're going, and I'll answer it. I believe that statistically speaking, it's highly probable another world capable of supporting life exists. Whether that world has ever developed life or not, is open to speculation because we have no evidence confirming or denying it. I would like to believe that Earth isn't the only planet with life on it in the cosmos, but that's just my own personal opinion. Now what your next argument is going to be is that the question of a deity is the same as life existing elsewhere: that there's no evidence for or against it, so the question is open. However, that analogy doesn't hold up. We *know* that it's possible for a planet to support life; we *know* that it's possible for life to arise on Earthlike planets; we know this because our own existence is irrefutable evidence of it. It's only the probability of life elsewhere that's in dispute, not the possibility. There still is no evidence of any kind for the possibility of a supernatural entity, be it a personal god or a "non-specific and ethereal Formless and Nameless Cosmic Creative Intelligence". And without evidence of that possibility, why should we automatically assume it's probable, or even possible?
February 12, 2008 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
armchairqb- What we should be teaching kids in kindergarten is critical thinking skills and a reliance on logic and reason... or at least, what they're capable of understanding of it at that age. Everything else stems from that central focus.
id04sp- A quick quote for you on faith by Friedrich Nietzsche, "A casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." As for a few Biblical prophecies, here are a few that failed:
Genesis 2:17-- The day Adam eats the fruit of the magic tree, he'll die... he eats it in the next chapter, then lives for another 930 years.
Genesis 4:11-12-- For killing his brother, Cain is sentenced to be a fugitive and vagabond... then in a couple versus, he takes a wife and builds a city.
Genesis 46:4-- God promises that Jacob will return safely from Egypt... but he later dies there.
Ezekiel 27: 7, 14, 32-- Nebuchdrezzer of Babylon will destroy Tyre... never happened.
Ezekiel 29:10-12-- Babylon will conquer Egypt and scatter its people among the nations... nope, didn't quite work out that way.
Micah 3:12-- Jerusalem would become "a heap of ruins" by Sennacherib... the city was sieged but not destroyed.
Those are only a very few of the things that were supposed to come true, but didn't, in the Bible. For a longer list, see http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/pro...
As for the New Testament supposedly confirming the old, how difficult do you think it would be for the NT writers to write it so that it looks like they're confirming prophecy from so long ago? In point of fact, we have textual evidence that that's exactly what they did... namely the entire question of whether or not Mary was a virgin. Do the research and you'll see for yourself.
February 12, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Jay-K,
Thanks for the answer. Next question:
Do you believe that life on Earth came about thru a series of events that were purely random?
February 12, 2008 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
This has been so entertaining! I am not a scholar by any stretch as many of you appear to be; however, I have dug up some interesting material to add to this discussion. I have several points that will aid the argument of the validity of the Bible and thus the reality of Jesus Christ being our Lord and savior and the son of God. Sometimes I stated sources often did not sorry. I may have to use a couple of entries. I apologize to interfere with your fabulous history lessons going on, but there may be others out there of various religious groups (there are over 6000 religions) Christians included, who may enjoy the historical data that backs up the reality of the Bible.
Included are proofs for the reliability of the Bible by Josh McDowell, Evidence that demands a verdict: Using Bibliographical Tests; Internal Evidence Tests; and External Evidence Tests.
1. Bibliographical Tests (Methods of the Scribes & Manuscript Comparison Study)
Methods of the Scribes - There is an exact science that scribes of the time had to use in preparing the manuscript including but not limited to:
• what it was written on
• how it was fastened
• the length of each column
• the line number per column
• the recipe of ink used
• spacing between consonants
• the width between lines
• counting the number of times each letter was used
• calculating the middle word
• If there were more then three errors after the production of the master copied, it was destroyed then began again.
• Once an exact copy was produced the original fading copy was destroyed to assure the accuracy of the most perfect example of God's word.
• The Old Testament Manuscripts were all tested to be true to God, and therefore 22 books of the Old Testament were found to be sacred text or Holy Scripture and divine according to Jewish Historian Josephus, Against Apion, in the early 90's AD.
• The 27 New Testament Manuscripts, were all tested based on: Is it authoritative (from God), Is it prophetic (written by a man of God), Is it authentic (If in doubt throw it out), Is it dynamic (Did it come from life transforming power of God), and Was it received, collected, read, and used by the people of God of the time? The New Testament books proved to be true by how it was used and not by a meeting or council of men Josh McDowell A Ready Defense.
• The oral accounts of the time were as valuable as the written accounts and all matched in perfect harmony.
February 12, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
The Manuscript Comparison Study
• During the times of the great kings we have numerous manuscripts and parchments of ancient literature which validates the authenticity of each writing. Scholars and historians accept these as valid and authentic because we have the manuscripts to prove they are real and from the kings and scholars of the times. Ceaser has 10 writings from 900 AD with a time span of 1,000 years; Plato has 7 over 1,200 years; Sophocles has 193 over 1,400 years; Aristotle has 49 over the course of 1,400 years. In the entire range of ancient Greek and Latin literature the Illiad ranks 2nd to the New Testament with 643 manuscripts to authenticate it is real. It was written over a 500 year span. The New Testament is by far the leader in documentation with over 24,000 authenticated manuscripts over the course of 1,600 years. The events of the Bible are well documented and thus true.
• Even if somebody deliberately or by accident amended or corrupted God's word (the manuscripts) it would be corrected by the other 23,999 other manuscripts available.
• Bottom line- if you believe anything in history whether from Grecian or Roman Empires, Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates, we had better not make a claim against the historicity or accuracy of the New Testament and the Holy Bible.
• The New Testament documents are far more numerous, older, demonstrably more accurate historically, and have been examined by a far greater battery of scholars, both friend and foe, than all other ancient manuscripts put together. They have met the test impeccably. - Floyd McElveen God's Word, Final, Infallible, and Forever.
February 12, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
2. Internal Evidence (Prophecy & Archeology)
Prophecy
• The most common objection to prophecy is that non believers say that Christians created the manuscripts with their prophecy after it had all been fulfilled so they knew what to write in the Old Testament. The answer to this argument is that The Old Testament manuscripts were completed by 450 BC, so the authors were long gone before Jesus came on the scene. If you are still not convinced, think of this. The Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Original Hebrew Scriptures was written in the time of Philadeiphus (285 246 BC). So clearly if you have a Greek translation initiated in 250 BC then you have the Hebrew Text from which is written. Therefore, there was at least a 250 year gap between the time the Old Testament Scriptures were written and when Christ came to fulfill the prophecies.
• This is the best part. There are 48 prophecies in the Old Testament that validate Jesus and the happenings in His life. Because we cannot fathom in our brains the scientific probability of 48 prophecies coming true in the nature on man coming to earth to fulfill these prophecies lets just take eight and figure the scientific probability of that (an example of some of these are that He is born in Bethlehem, preceded by a messenger, entered Jerusalem on a donkey, betrayed by a friend, sold for 30 pieces of silver, etc). If only eight of these prophecies were true the scientific probability would be 1 in 10 to the 17th power or (100,000,000,000,000,000). To help us understand what the probability is, it is like taking enough silver dollars to cover Texas in two feet of coins from border to border, than asking a blind man to go anywhere he wants in the large state of Texas and on the first try choosing the silver dollar with a designated mark on it. Peter Stoner Science Speaks
That is the probability that the prophets who wrote the Old Testament could coincide even 8 of the prophecies and have it come true. Can you imagine now if we figured the probability of all 48 prophecies and not just 8 of them? This would equate to 1 in 10 to the 157th power, so what does this prove? It helps to prove that the Bible is not mere stories from men, but inspired by God. I Peter 1:20-21 says, He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorifies Him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
February 12, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
Also, since you enjoy scientific proof here are a few supplemental observations: The Atoms in the Universe are 10 to the 66th power; Total Particles are 10 to the 80th power; and seconds in 10 billion years is 10 to the 17th power. The probability that mere men could make up the prophecies of the Bible and have one man, Jesus, fulfill them all, is scientifically absurd. Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proven more absolutely than any other fact in the world!
Archeology
Since the Bible is religious and not scientific in nature many scholars feel it is biased and not proven to be true. Science deems the Bible guilty until proven innocent. Here are several scientific proofs of its validity:
• Clay tablets from Ebra found in the Syrian mountains in 1970. These tablets written in 2300 BC demonstrate that the patriarchal accounts are genuine, and clears up any misrepresentation of Canaan, the creation story, and Moses himself. One of tablets was written 800 years before Moses. Other significant tablets were found in Nuzi and Mari to validate customs and stories of the Patriarchs. Tablets found in Bogazkoy, Turkey validate The Hittites, and King Solomon from the Bible.
• King Saragon from the book of Isaiah was proven to be true when they found his palace in Khorsabsad, Iraq; the capture of Ashad was recorded on the palace walls all validating the authenticity of the Bible.
• King Belshazzar of Babylon in the book of Daniel who saw the "Writing on the Wall" the night of his death, was also validated when tablets were found recording the history of Babylon. These are but a few of the eye witnesses found to validate and record that the Bible is a documentation of true recorded events of history. If we believe any artifacts we must also believe the Bible. Bryant C.Wood In what ways have the discoveries of archeology verifies the reliability of the Bible?
February 12, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
3. External Evidence Test of the authenticity of the Bible
The historical writers of Biblical times validate the Bible from their non-Biblical writings.
• Eusebius of Caesarea (AD 263 339) His ecclesiastical History preserved the writings of Papias, bishop of Hieropolis who was a friend of the Apostle John. Here is a direct quote from his writing. "The Elder (Apostle John) used to say this also: 'Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he (Peter) mentioned, whether sayings or doings of Christ, not, however in order. For he was neither a hearer or companion of the Lord; but afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who adapted his teachings as necessity required, not as though he were making compilations of the sayings of the Lord. So then Mark made no mistake, writing down in this way some things as he (Peter) mentioned them; for he paid attention to this one thing, not to omit anything that he had heard, nor to include any false statement among them.'" Josh McDowell Evidence that demands a Verdict
• Flavius Josephus (AD 37-100?)- Was one of the most accurate and complete Jewish historians of his time. He wrote The Antiquities of the Jews primarily for non-Jews to understand the ways of the Jewish culture. He wrote, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works a teacher of such men as receive truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." Flavius Josephus, The works of Josephus
• Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56-117?) A Roman aristocrat and historian who wrote a detailed history of the Roman empire under Nero. In his classical works entitled The Annals, he wrote this about Christianity: ":Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus (Christ), from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus:." Cornelius Tacitus, The Annals
February 12, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
I do not believe that the Bible has to pass the scientific methods to be true; however, these points should begin to open eyes to its possibility. Our God is way bigger than our tiny little brains. Science in general is too limiting for historical documentation. Without God in the mix, we are mere humans and limited to human knowledge or what we have discovered thus far. Scientific methods cannot prove the origin of the earth, so why does the Bible have to pass its test to be real. Do we not really exist since we cannot scientifically prove how we came to be? We cannot control nor recreate evolution or creation; therefore, neither can be proven true or false. But God has this to say about scripture: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." I can't prove love exists, but I know it does because I feel daily from family and friends and want o give it back. For me the Holy Bible is from God; not because of the data I have presented today, but because of Faith. One day in Heaven, I will understand why it all happened the way it did, but until then, I will continue to read your entertaining repartee with muse, but live my life believing in the God ordained writings of the Bible.
February 12, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
Many for you know John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life (in Heaven). Many interested parties who do not comment are reading your friendly banter and I want them to know that all you have to do to guarantee your spot in Heaven is to believe that Jesus is the son of God who was sent to this earth to be the sacrificial lamb of God and save us, if we believe in Him. Once you (I already have) accept Him as God's son, the Holy Spirit will come to live in you and through you. Don't be fooled however, being a Christian is not for the faint at heart, Jesus suffered and so will we. What doesn't kill us strengthens us. Babies learn to run by first trying to walk then falling down then crying then trying again until they master running. Anything worth doing is worth the battle to achieve it. Remember your first love? It hurt when it was over, but if you were blessed with love again, hopefully you didn't disregard it because of the fear of hurt. Love is worth it, even if someday this love too could end. Life will still present itself with hardship and struggles, yet you will have hope that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and to those who are called according to His purpose - Romans 8:28. I wake up every day with my plan "A". Sometimes it runs just as I had planned and I am on top of my game. Other days, God throws in His plan "B" the Better plan for me. I trust in Him and know it will all work out probably better than my original plan "A" because He loves me. Love is not without hardship. My father was the best in my eyes, but I suffered harsh consequences if I disobeyed. I am glad I was taught by a loving father who disciplined. I know it hurt him worse then it did me. My father in Heaven is the only father I have now and I learn from his discipline when I make bad choices for my life. As I have said before I am not perfect just forgiven. God may not be real, I can't prove it, but what if, when I die, when you die, He is real?
February 12, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Faith ( anonymous ) says...
If someone wants to know more about what brings Christians peace and Joy, I suggest reading the book of John in the New Testament of an easy to read Bible like the NIV (the King James is hard to comprehend although all versions of the Bible imply the same meaning some are meant to be easier for the present generations to read). If you are a new or wanna be Christian and want to learn more about God and Jesus and their love for us, then attend a Bible based church like the Christian Center or Euzoa Bible Church that teaches God's word (the Bible) rather than man made religious practices. Here are two poems from unknown authors: "If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the Universe, but He chose your heart. Face it friend, He is crazy about You!" Just one more.: "God didn't promise us days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain, but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way." Unknown Authors
Back to your banter Gentlemen I get to go pick up kids:
So sorry guys this was soooo long....
February 12, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Jay-K,
I also wasn't trying to sound flippant about it. I'm trying to make a point, and I always try to add a joke with my posts when discussing in a friendly manner. Hence the above 2nd question. I never said I believed the Bible, but I don't discount it. I actually watched an old Futurama (amazingly enough) last night that was along the idea I like to think: If a god does too much, you become dependent on that god. If a god does too little, the god becomes forgotten. When the Bible was first being written, we needed that guidance. Maybe not so much now...but that's up for a different debate. I look forward to the next answer!
Faith-
I can honestly say I'm not a scholar of religion nor evolution. I am a sci-fi fan and an avid comic collector.
In comic books, there is all sorts of Gods, Demi-Gods, New Gods, Old Gods from real mythology, made up mythology, alternate timelines, multi/omniversal theory, and abstract entities embodying different aspects of the universe. Since all these things are written as fiction, they are entertainint, but fiction is rooted in non-fiction to some degree. It has to come from ideas burning in someone's head...the way the Burning Bush gave ideas to Moses in the form of the Ten Commandments on stone.
I think your postings, yes- looooong, were an entertaining read.
February 12, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Yikes back to the dorm, contemplating The Meaning Of Life over beer & Cheetos.
Jay_K:
Lighten up, and look up the phrase "tongue in cheek" - re: your deconstruction of my post about the shark.
Faith, seven, freshair, & the faithful:
Christian doctrine holds that earth is anywhere (depending on which Christian you ask) between 4,000-10,000 years old. How are you able to reconcile that with the fossil record and carbon 14 dating techniques? The easy answer is id04sp's paraphrased John Lennon: all you need is faith.
I'm still interested in a more substantive explanation. This is not a "gotcha" question. I'm genuinely curious; it factors into my own agnosticism.
February 12, 2008 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Speaking of the Meaning Of Life:
Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...
Congregation: O Lord...
Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...
Congregation: ...ooh, You are so big...
Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.
Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.
Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...
Congregation: And barefaced flattery.
Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Congregation: Fantastic.
Humphrey: Amen.
Congregation: Amen.
February 12, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOw...
February 12, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
kielbasa- Having reread what I posted, I realized that I never actually answered your question: do I believe in life outside of Earth? The answer is I would like to believe, but there's no evidence for it, other than the possible fossils of bacterial life in Mars' past. So I neither believe, nor disbelieve. Now, your next question, whether I believe life arose purely through random events: yes or no, depending on what you mean. If you mean whether I believe that life arose from the so-called "primordial soup" without outside influence or not, then yes. But it's been shown that carbon atoms (the essential elements of DNA and RNA) are self-organizing... thus, prebiotic synthesis may not have occurred entirely "randomly". There are all sorts of theories for how life originally arose, but still no evidence for divine intervention.
Faith- I said I would not kick the crutch out from under you, but by re-entering the debate/discussion (as you are more than welcome to do... I thoroughly enjoy discussions of this nature), you've willingly opened your views to rebuttal. Very well. Your first mistake is that you are again (as Hunterdog pointed out earlier) using the Bible (and other early Christian writings) to verify the Bible (and other early Christian writings) is factually true in regards to Joshua of Galilee's divinity. This is circular reasoning ("the Bible is true because the Bible says it is") and invalid in debate. Your second mistake is assuming that I'm disputing the Bible was written by a lot of people over a long period of time... I'm not. I fully accede that the Bible took a long time to write, and that a lot of people contributed to it. What I'm disputing is that any of those people were at all "divinely" inspired or guided. Your third mistake is here: "non believers say that Christians created the manuscripts with their prophecy after it had all been fulfilled so they knew what to write in the Old Testament". No. No, no, no. That's not what we're saying at all. The Old Testament was taken from the Hebrew Tanakh, which was compiled long before Joshua supposedly lived. What we're saying is that the writers of the New Testament *knew* the prophecies from the Tanakh, and wrote down events so that it would seem those prophecies were fulfilled. In addition, there is textual evidence that that's exactly what happened. Ask yourself this: how difficult would it be for the gospel writers (who *all* lived about a century or even more after the events chronicled supposedly took place) to write it so? The answer is: not very difficult at all.
February 12, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
Faith- In addition to which, how do you explain the internal contradictions within the Bible? There are a very large number of problems with the Bible, and Christian apologists struggle to explain them away. But answer me this: if the Bible were divinely inspired by an all-knowing and all-powerful being, and is meant to be a guidebook for humanity for all time, why is there not a single verse anywhere in it that could not have been written by someone living in the first couple of centuries CE? And why even need Christian apologists? Why shouldn't the Bible be entirely straightforward, easy to understand for everyone?
"Without God in the mix, we are mere humans and limited to human knowledge or what we have discovered thus far (Exactly, and rightly so.). Scientific methods cannot prove the origin of the earth (in what way have geology, astronomy, physics, and so forth not done so?), so why does the Bible have to pass its test to be real (because science is all about coming to objective truth with as little bias as possible... religion is all about bias). Do we not really exist since we cannot scientifically prove how we came to be (I think you missed my point.)? We cannot control nor recreate evolution (Incorrect... MRSA is a prime example of our meddling with natural selection) or creation (Of course not. It wouldn't be possible for us to be anywhere in the vicinity of a naked singularity.)..."
"For me the Holy Bible is from God; not because of the data I have presented today, but because of Faith." I will reiterate Friedrich Nietzsche: "A casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." You may have faith in anything you wish. That does not make it objectively true. Faith of the sort you promote is irrelevant in the light of reason.
February 12, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
Faith- As for your call to readers to Christendom, keep this in mind: I used to be a member in good standing. I know all your arguments, all your appeals, and all your rationalizations. But when I actually looked with a skeptical eye at what I believed for so long, it became obvious: I was told lies. They were no doubt told with the best intentions, and those telling them were not aware of their untruth, but that does not make them true.
February 12, 2008 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Thanks again, JayK!
Now, in order to believe in life (whether proof exists at this time or not) exists outside of Earth, would you then believe the exact "random" events would just happen to come about in the same fashion in order to create life elsewhere? To me, that would mean it's not as random as we would think.
I concede there is no evidence of any of this, but that's the point. We would like to "have faith" that there is more life out there in the universe.
In that aspect, should we find life out there, it might be much older and more advanced than our sciences, making things like teleportation, etc., it indeterminable from magic. If they could perform things we've never been capable of in this aspect, wouldn't that meet a possible definition of a god, if unexplainable thru our sciences? That goes back to my time travel allusion: if the science isn't explained to the lesser developed species, it's in essence, magic/supernatural.
It could be a species so far evolved to have left physical shells behind and using telepathy to communicate. Wasn't that the essence of the Burning Bush to Moses? A little TK to hammer out the tablets? Sure it sounds far out...but since we use a very small portion of our brain capacity consciously, maybe it's even something the human race will aspire to eons down the road.
It's a reach, but that's what having faith is all about.
February 12, 2008 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Why are those of you that keep saying prove there is a God still not addressing my information in the beginning? Remember? Easy to prove. God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those that curse Israel. This alone proves He is real. You know this and will not step up. Look back in history. Anyone who goes against Israel gets squashed. Quit avoiding the subject and copying another man's writings and research it for yourself. Somebody must be bold enough if you truly believe there is no God. It's more important that your hands find and confirm it to be true than mine. I of course could do the work for you but my facts are nothing because you know me not.
February 12, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Sorry forgot to add try to start with the most recent events so everyone else can follow along with information they at least have some memory of. Example: Study the recent date U.S.A tried to take Isreals land and give it to Palestine. Look at what happened in home foreclosures and the start of recession problems. Look at the dates around each time our government went against Israel. Shocking at what happened and undeniable.
February 12, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Anyone know how old Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/Buddhists believe the world to be? Just curious.
February 12, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trustme ( anonymous ) says...
Religion has been and always will be the cause of all wars. My beliefs are obviously superior to your beliefs so all of your followers must be wiped out. It is absurd reality. I agree with Bill Maher, who said "I think religion is a neurological disorder. "
If you believe in some higher power, great. If you don't, that's cool too. But don't tell me that I am somehow less important than you because you believe that some loosely translated book over thousands of years is the literal guide for everyone who inhabits the earth.
Don't be sheep. Believe in whatever helps get you through your life. But don't expect everyone to see the world through your rose colored glasses.
February 12, 2008 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Nicely said, trustme!
February 12, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
heard about the dyslexic atheist insomniac? they stayed up all night contemplating the existence of Dog.
February 12, 2008 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx ( anonymous ) says...
Its funny to hear you whiners try to slam creationism and the Bible by standing behind your carbon 14 dating. You are fools. Google "carbon dating flawed". Were not talking creationists slamming evolution. Real world scientists are saying it is flawed with failure rates of up to 50%. Dendochronolgy to back it up is flawed because the people creating the database for backup refuse to submit their evidence for statistical review. The part that really makes me laugh is it sounds like circular reasoning on evolutionists part. Trying to prove evolution with evolution. That is what carbon dating assumes. It is assumed by scientists that evolution is correct and based on that assumption they think they know what the earth was like and what the date of the artifact should reasonably be in their mind. They assume steady decay rates. With no idea of what the real ratio of carbon 12 to 14 was when the artifact in question was deposited in the dirt. Decay rate determines the amount of c-14 in the artifact. Higher than normal background radiation accelerates the decay throwing off dating, variations in earths magnetic field, volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes can also skew the results. Evolution is junk science. I'm shocked by some of the statements the evolutionists make on this commentary. JayK claims to have read the Bible but when you read his interpretation his ignorance is glaring. Hunterdog is obviously a follower like a little puppy dog. Just like a puppy he will eat anything you give him pro-evolution. The blind leading the blind. The believers in Jesus seem to be the only ones making sense. It begs the question. What makes you hate God? What makes you deny Jesus? What occurred in your life personally, not what you heard on gossip that, convinced you to oppose God?
February 12, 2008 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx ( anonymous ) says...
oops I forgot to add this about JayK belief on arising out of primodial soup. One of the laws of thermodynamics states that without outside energy put into a system it will gradually slow to a stop. JayK's belief in evolution and life from a rock and bolt of lighting and things evolved into more complex forms is completly unsupported. In fact it sounds like that enigma called the perpetual motion machine except JayK's is "miraculous" in that it actually goes faster the longer it runs. How silly.
February 12, 2008 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Nice rant, Flinx. I was under the impression that "Love Thy Neighbor" was among the more prominent Christian precepts. Calling them "fools" must = love & understanding in whatever denomination you belong to.
It's people like you who give Christians a bad name.
February 12, 2008 at 10:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx ( anonymous ) says...
looks like jazzslave has misconceptions too. Do you really think "christians" are all simple little country bumpkins with a fifth grade education and never speak up. Many people make the mistake of taking words out of the Bible without even looking at context. Mt.22:39 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". Therefore you believe I should love evolutionists and not point out they have no clothes on, because that would be bad. I am loving them as I love myself. If I follow your logic:
Lie to evolutionists tell them they are right when my heart says they are wrong.
Yet Mt.22:39 logic states that I should be as honest with them as I am honest with myself. I should love them as I love myself. To do otherwise would be to justify turning a blind eye to church scandals.
They are fools. Even God says that. Psalms 14:1"The fool has said in his heart there is no God"
I've read all the previous commentary. For too long believers in Christ have allowed the world to put them in a box. Don't preach to me except on Sunday. Don't say anything controversial. Don't rock the boat. Thats old school. Don't be shocked when someone finally stands up. If God be with them, who can be against them? I carefully judge what I say. I hold it up to the light of His Word. If I'm wrong I hold my tongue. If I'm right judgement will be against me if I don't tell you.
February 12, 2008 at 11:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Flinx:
I know more devout people than I do non-believers. Not by much; it's probably 55-45 in favor of the believers. Whenever I've discussed religion and faith with ANY of them, I've never resorted to insults to make my point, and neither have they. My Christian friends approach the discussion with genuine affection, or "love", if you will - those whom I don't know well have always been respectful of me, and I've always returned that respect.
I wish you luck in your efforts to convince the heathens among us. You're so angry and bitter and caustic about anyone who disagrees with you, you're going to need all the luck you can get!
February 12, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx ( anonymous ) says...
sbvor. no and no.
Even the sun is decaying. Don't you remember? The sun is using up its fuel steadily in the thermonuculear process. Lighter elements to heavier elements. Eventually collapsing in on itself. All stars die. You can prove this to your self. Go out at night with a good telescope or visit the hubble telescope sight at NASA to observe some collapsed stars.
As for the amino acid fairy tale go to:www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=8
The gist of it:
The 1953 experiment only produced a few of the 20 acids needed.
The gases involved react to sunlight and thus unavailable to help create amino acids. "Can't have your sun and eat your amino acids too, sbvor"
Oxygen stops the amino acid formation and the geologic record supports the presence of oxygen during primordial soup time.
February 12, 2008 at 11:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JazzSlave ( anonymous ) says...
Anyone know what the record is for # of comments?
February 12, 2008 at 11:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
smoke ( anonymous ) says...
flinx, how long ago was prmodial soup time?
February 12, 2008 at 11:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
JazzSlave- Ah, my bad. I thought you were linking that shark's virgin birth in earnest.
kielbasa- I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I agree that it's possible that life has evolved elsewhere. I agree that it's probable that if life evolved elsewhere, it wouldn't have evolved along the same lines as on Earth. I agree that significantly advanced technology would appear magical to someone not in the know. A flashlight would be incomprehensible to someone from biblical times. What I don't agree with is that advanced technology would be unexplainable through our sciences... at least, not in the long run. The universe runs on a set of (as far as all the evidence points) unbreakable rules: the gravitational constant, the inverse square law, the velocity of light, etc. Science is ever-expanding what we know about reality. The difference between us and biblical figures is that we have the scientific method, the tried-and-true way of learning the facts. We don't automatically assume that something we can't immediately explain is supernatural or divine (or, at least, the more rational of us don't). If scientists can't find a logical explanation for something, they worry away at the problem until they can. Incidentally, telepathy and telekinesis are impossible according to the inverse square law of physics... and there's also never been any empirical evidence for either. I'm a sci-fi fan, too. Time travel, extraterrestrials, psionic powers... these are staples of the genre, and always spice up a storyline. But I always keep in mind that it's still fiction, until something comes along to prove otherwise. I should point out that this: "we use a very small portion of our brain capacity consciously" is incorrect. That's a variant of the old "we only use 10% of our brains" myth. I know you don't like clicking links but you should read this: http://www.brainconnection.com/topics... Your statement shows a profound misunderstanding of the subject matter.
February 13, 2008 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jay_K ( anonymous ) says...
seven- Oh? Let's find out: damn Israel to hell. Oh, dear. I just cursed at Israel. I better watch out for falling lightning bolts.
trustme- No, I wouldn't say religion is the cause of all wars. But it does make a handy excuse.
blog- Cute, but I've heard it before. :)
Flinx- According to Joshua of Gallilee in Matthew 5:22 "...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." You really should be careful about slinging that word around. "JayK claims to have read the Bible but when you read his interpretation his ignorance is glaring." Please, point out my inconsistencies and/or logical errors. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, but it seems I know the Bible better than you do.
"Dendochronolgy[sic] to back it up is flawed because the people creating the database for backup refuse to submit their evidence for statistical review." Where'd you get that, and don't you mean peer review? I'd just like to say that it's a good thing there are any number of other dating methods being used besides radiocarbon dating and dendochronology, because those two only date back less than 50,000 years. For instance: uranium-lead, uranium-thorium, potassium-argon, argon-argon, fission track, cosmogenic isotope, rubidium-strontium, samarium-neodymium, rhenium-osmium, lutetium-hafnium, paleomagnetic, thermo-luminescence, ice cores, lichenometry, varves, and so on. The geological column is quite clear.
As for evolution being junk science, I'll leave you for now with this quote: when asked what would disprove evolution, biologist J. B. S. Haldane said, "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." It's late and I need sleep. I'll write more later.
February 13, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trustme ( anonymous ) says...
Your cut and paste methods are quite impressive. It must make you feel really great to spew out inch after inch of babble. Someone may read some of your cut and paste if you could just understand the basic concept of Paragraphs!!!!
Then you could direct more people to the Creationism Museum in Kentucky.
February 13, 2008 at 1:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Flinx ( anonymous ) says...
JayK
Another victim of the public school system I see. Read in context. Matthew 5:21-22. You state throwing around the "fool" word as condeming me to hell. If you read the entire account which you lobotomized it says "Ye have heard it said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill be in danger of the judgement: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother WITHOUT CAUSE (emphasis mine) shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosover shall say to his brother, Raca, (empty head) shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire:"
JayK my nickname for you as fool is not without merit or CAUSE when I read the whole TRUTH. Not as you would like as you butcher the Bible. You are still a fool. You like to speed read and glean the Bible only for ammo to use against those you hate. The "body language" of your articles bear this out.
February 13, 2008 at 6:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
JayK
The Biblical prophecies you listed did not come true, so they were not true prophecies. That's the test.
However, comma, Adam and Eve did "die" when they ate the fruit of the Tree of Life. It made them MORTAL. Before that, they were immortal, and could never die. God said, "Let us make them in our image," and part of that image was incorruptable flesh. So, if Adam lived another 900 years, so what? He still died.
Despite our laws of physics, it has long been accepted that forward linear time does not necessarily exist outside, or beyond, our four dimensional universe. Modern physics teaches that there are parallel universes which occupy the same space, but the inhabitants, if any, are apparently unaware of each other.
Or are we? Could it be that we are only separated from the immortal spiritual plane of existence by our tie to this physical universe?
Biology and medical science teach us that aging is a function of time. Remember the cloned sheep that was born three years old? So, why isn't it possible that time as we know it does not exist in some other universe,
Certain particles seem to appear and disappear randomly and spontaneously from our universe. The explanation from modern physics is that, when they're not in this universe, they're in another one. I would say that this admission by physicists opens the door on the concept of an existence beyond our physical universe.
Quantum computing is being developed as a method to increase computing speed. It has already been shown that a particle can disapper from a point in space and reappear at another point in space faster than light can travel between the two points. We are on the verge of having a technology that depends upon the existence of another universe outside our known four-dimensional existence. So, science is about to prove that time and space as we know it don't matter (no pun intended) . . . .
February 13, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloggyblog ( anonymous ) says...
blog propose's a quick and simple solution to the never-ending "god debate". each faction choses a representative, i.e seven represents the jewish god. flinx your the christian representative, jay-k you stand for the atheist. we chose representatives until all religions and various viewpoints are covered, then...into the octagon. last god standing is the one true god. we could put it on pay-per-view. lets see, how about calling it "battle of the big ones", no wait "diety d-day". yes thats it!! tune in saturday for "Diety D-day" because in the end their can be only one. p.s. smart moneys on Pallas Athena.
February 13, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
HunterDawg,
First Corinthians, Chapter 7:
7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
"Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh . . . "
This means that if you get married, you will find conflict in your earthly (in the flesh) life.
Can ANYBODY who has been married for a while tell me that this statement is not 100% true?
Paul was telling the Corinthians that, if they marry, it is not a sin, however, marriage will be a distraction from Godly ways and Godly works. This was used as justification to inflict celibacy on priests and nuns.
However, I would say that any married man ought to be able to support the veracity of Paul's warning.
Also, just for grins, if you read the dietary laws in Deuteronomy, you will find they provide excellent guidelines for anyone to follow if they happened to live in a warm Mediterranean climate 5000 years ago. This is particularly true with seafood and pork. Red tide, cholera and trichinosis were undetectable in seafood and pork prior to the invention of the microscope by Anton van Leeuwenhoek thousands of years later.
Hey, wouldn't it be funny if a lot of other Biblical stuff turned out to be true and valid in a few hundred or a few thousand years, and we are just too primitive to understand why the rules are there?
February 13, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
No, Dawg.
I'm making a direct tie from Biblical text to related facts observed in real life.
You asked for a single shred of empirical evidence supporting the veracity of the Bible. I gave you several shreds of emprical evidence which prove that some of the things written in the Bible are true, or should be followed due to underlying facts that could not have been known by mankind given the technology of the day. People still die in Mediterranean countries from eating shellfish tainted by red tide and cholera. Trichinosis still exists in some primitive countries, and can be prevented by avoiding consumption of pork.
And don't you dare tell me that Paul was not right about having "trouble in the flesh" if you get married. I think he scored a 3-pointer on that one.
February 13, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Flinx,
Would you replace the teaching of science, as it currently stands, in public schools with the teaching of biblical scripture? If so, why?
February 13, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog and jay
Have waited yet another day for you folks to disprove there is a God. Gave easy to follow information such as look at what He said about what happens to those that bless or curse Israel. History is loaded with that truth. That alone Is yet another truth God is real. The both of you side track and avoid this could it be you confirmed this with research but are not sure how is address it? Bring forth the truth.
Jay normally we need not know who you are but since your words were incredible against Israel. May God be with you my brother. Very sorry you feel that way but all have an equal opinion and we would like to hear from anyone no matter how harsh or loving. Much can be learned from each others life experiences and mistakes.
February 13, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
7,
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"
Wikipedia
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection. Most familiarly, many superstitious beliefs and magical thinking arise from this fallacy."
"Superstitious beliefs and magical thinking... " Sound familiar?
February 13, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
7,
"cum hoc ergo propter hoc"
Wikipedia
"Correlation does not imply causation is a phrase used in the sciences and statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not imply there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the two. Its negation, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship.
In a widely-studied example, numerous epidemiological studies showed that women who were taking combined hormone replacement therapy (HRT) were found to have a lower than average incidence of coronary heart disease (CHD), leading doctors to propose that HRT was protective against CHD. Controlled trials showed that HRT caused a small and significant increase in risk of CHD. Re-analysis of the data showed that women undertaking HRT were more likely to be from socio-economic groups ABC1, with better than average diet and exercise regimes. The two were coincident effects of a common cause, rather than cause and effect as had been supposed.[1]
This is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause. It is subtly different to the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc, which in requiring a chronological component may be considered a subtype of cum hoc."
February 13, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
curmudgeon ( anonymous ) says...
Hey...do you know what God spelled backwards is? And my dog doesn't even know how to read.
February 13, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
housepoor ( anonymous ) says...
man, you guys must have a ton of time on your hands............how about helping out with those roofs?
February 13, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
HungerDawg,
I don't get it. You asked for any "shred" of empirical evidence of the veracity of the Bible, and I provided it. Now, you may disagree with most of what's in the Bible, and that's okay with me, because we have free will.
The owner's manual of my car says to change the oil every 5000 miles. Does that mean it will stop working the instant I don't change the oil past 5000 miles? No. On the other hand, I have seen cars where the owner never changed the oil even once, but only added oil when it was low. Oh, and I've seen them sitting on the side of the road with a thown rod and a hole in the engine block. Is there a connection? Yeah, somewhere between 5000 miles and a busted piston rod lies the truth.
Personally, I change my oil at the recommended intervals and use synthetic oil, because a $35 DIY oil change is much cheaper than a car payment. Got one going strong at 160k+ plus miles, and I've been using synthetic oil since 50k.
Some people will tell you that the Bible is the undisputed word of God. I think it's the collection of books that the Emperor Constantine wanted us to see, and men are fallable, and maybe not all the truth has been given to us.
So, I think the thing is that you should just ignore the whole issue of spirituality and stay away from people who push it, and you'll be a happier fella. Eh?
Oh, by the way, Isreal is sitting on more oil in the Bekka Valley than Saudi Arabia ever had. The only reason they're not exploiting it is that the Arab states would crush them if they tried it, mainly, because the territory is disputed. That oil is seen by the Arabs to be Muslim oil.
One of these days Saudi Arabia and Iran and Iraq and Kuwait and all them places are going to run dry, and their governments will collapse, and then the Israelis will be supplying oil to us because the Arabs won't have viable modern military forces of any sort. That's why we need Israel. The rest of it is a cover story.
February 13, 2008 at 3:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now ( anonymous ) says...
Isreal is here to stay, deal with it.
Now since the middle east is so low on prime real estate. Throw the Palestinians a bone. A little one now, remember they led the charge in the six day war and are to this day acting as agressors, terrorists and murderers. Ok that was a generalization, its only their leadership that does that.
February 13, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter,
Check the names, Bubba.
By the way, telling me that you teach 10th graders as something to support your level of education and intelligence is a real hoot. Teaching high school is just a little bit harder than going to high school. Come to think of it, teaching high school is probably easier than being a high school student.
Tell ya what. Go study statistical theory at the Masters level for a year, and then come back, and we'll discuss Type I and Type II errors.
The inability to prove that something exists does not prove lack of existence. It only proves a lack of abililty to detect what's there. It's called "false negative" if you'd like to Google it.
February 13, 2008 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Not at all Hunterdog.
It is very well known that education is one of the easiest majors. They don't teach you what to teach. They teach you how to teach. Then they send you away and you have the teacher's guide with all the answers, and you're in business.
Think about it. You have people who spend four years getting a college degree, and it's only after they graduate and get a job they find out that the pay sucks. Well, DUH! And these are the people who we put in charge of preparing our children for the working world waiting outside the school house.
You'll call this circular logic, so whatever -- (did you learn the tool from messing with Excel spreadsheets?) --
Creation is a real, demonstrable phenomenon that we can all witness in our everyday lives. Creation is the process whereby songs and poetry are composed, pictures are painted, and new dishes are invented by chefs. It's all around us. You find it in every man-made object. The Wright Brothers didn't just invent the first practical powered airplane; they CREATED it from raw materials using original ideas which somehow popped into their heads. It wasn't assembled from a kit.
Spiders spin distinctive webs, depending on the species. Birds build distinctive nests, again, depending on the species. Whale songs change and evolve over time, but so far, I've not seen an underwater condo constructed by a whale. Humans are, so far, the only aminals (sic) who have demonstrated the ability to create something new and novel from raw materials -- the clay of the Earth, if you can make that stretch of imagination. If not, then just take the idea of a mud brick which is, literally, created by man from materials found in the ground.
The story of the Creation follows the paradigm of human creative abilities. As I posted above, if we were created in God's image, then the urge and ability to create is a part of that image.
An intelligent, free-thinking person (such as myself) is not bound to a single point of view. This is not a hard concept for smart people to grasp. Being able to approach a problem from a different point of view allows us to anticipate how others will react, such as in a game of Chess. "If I move my Queen over there, what can he do, and what will he do?" Thinking ahead several moves is a part of the game.
I'll grant you that the concept of God may have been created by people. Heck, George Lucas invented "The Force" are there are people who actually believe in such a thing. I won't even go into Scientology.
Anyway, the essence of intelligence is the ability to think in abstract terms, and I am perfectly able to ponder the concepts of Creation and evolution on equal terms.
February 14, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
freshair ( anonymous ) says...
It has been well-documented that students who are education majors rank at the bottom of every testing and exit testing parameter. The scandalous rates of failure for these 'graduates' to pass state licensing and certification exams is notable.
February 14, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
(continued)
It has been about 65 millions years since the extinction of the dinosaurs. Humans developed intelligence, emotion and creativity in about the past two million years according to the geological records. The dinosaurs were around for about 150 million years, yet, we find no evidence of civilized development even though they had twice as long to evolve intelligence and establish a civilization as we've had.
Assuming that mutations occur randomly over time, and are manifested in a single generation, the dinosaurs had orders of magnitude higher probabilities of developing intelligence through evolution in their 150 million years on the planet than we've had in less than 1/2 the same time (65 million years). If we are a model of what's "average," the dinosaurs should have been riding around in flying saucers by the time they became extinct.
Paleontologists and anthropoligists speculate that our evolution from lower mammals was made possible by the extinction of the large, predatory dinosaurs which filled the niches at the top of the food chain. Doesn't it make sense that the large predators at the top of the food chain were in a prime position to also evolve intelligence, and were there a lot longer than we've been there?
Let's be generous and say that intelligence would only arise in any single species by chance in any period of one million years. Given that model, it's been done by one species, us, in 65 million years, so we have a sample mean of 1/65. With no other information to go on, we have a simple binomial distribution to work with. So, based on the observed occurrence of one intelligent species having evolved in 65 million years, (1 in 65), the chances that the dinosaurs would have developed intelligence by the time they'd been around for 150 millions years is .902, or just over 90%.
So, Mr. or Ms. Empirical, why didn't it happen? Bad luck? If we really dug in and looked at mutation rates over time and used some better statistical models, the dinosaurs should have been MUCH more likely to develop intelligence by the time they became extinct than us. Yet, they died out as big dumb animals and we are here flying to the Moon in less than 1/2 the time.
So now my question to you is, why are humans the only apparent intelligent species to develop tools, language, civiliazation, etc., in the history of the Earth? Don't the probabilities say that there should be others here with us? Using my crude model, each species on Earth should have had a 63% chance of developing intelligence in the last 65 million years. And there are tens of thousands of other species. What about elephants, big cats, dogs, horses, cows, etc?
What about sharks and crocodiles? They have not evolved at all in 65 million years according to the fossil record. What's up with that?
February 14, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
(continued)
So, I'm not going to tell you that any of this proves anything. I'll just wait for you to explain to me why random mutations and evolution occur in some species, and not in others. Is there any law that says cows couldn't have opposable thumbs, vocal cords, and frontal lobes?
Just tell me why we are unique in the animal kingdom, and in the 570,000,000 years since animal life appeared on Earth, why there are no other intelligent species living alongside us. According to the "chance evolution" theory, there should have been thousands in the history of the Earth so far.
February 14, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twostroketerror ( anonymous ) says...
Yawn
February 14, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Point me to a specific article dealing with the question on a probabilistic basis. I didn't see anything specific there. According to you, there should be a specific and empirical counter argment to refute my theory.
I'm not claiming we were created. I'm not claiming intelligent design. I'm not saying that the fossil record which supports evolution isn't there. I'm not even saying that mutation and natural selection don't occur. I'm asking you why we are the only intelligent animal species that has evolved to the point of having an advanced civilization. Why don't we see crocodiles hopping on a bus to go visit friends in the Amazon?
Again, I am not trying to prove that we are intelligent and human because God created us. I just want to know why it only worked on people.
February 14, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Sbvor,
Mutations occur randomly for a variety of reasons. Have crocodiles and sharks simply stopped experiencing cellular mutations? If not, how do they possibly stay the same? If so, then why are others still mutating?
I'm not saying that higher life forms are the end game, etc. I'm asking why wild chimpanzees and raccoons and even elephants (all of which have some ability to manipulate objects and use "tools" of one sort or another) did not develop the ability to use tools in parallel with humans. Shouldn't at least one other species have developed the ability to construct shelter, use fire, make stone tools, etc., alongside the development of human intelligence? Intelligence of this sort seems to be an exclusive human characteristic, and I just can't understand why it didn't also evolve in some other species by random chance.
Hunter,
I haven't said one thing about a supernatural entity being involved in the advent of human intelligence. I'm simply asking why billions of generations over millions of years have not resulted in mutations resulting in higher brain functions for other species. If saber-toothed cats had evolved a higher brain in North America while humans were doing the same in Africa, we might have different continents dominated by different intelligent species.
Is the genetic coding which results in the growth of the frontal lobes of the brain something that could have randomly been switched on by an identical mutation in numerous individuals? Or, is it something very complex that required a number of mutations which were unlikely to be repeated in the same order in other members of the species? Is 65 million years enough time for us to evolve from something like a rat into what we are today?
We know that there are genetic switches which cause cancer to develop. Some can be traced to a single gene.
I'm only saying that, if evolution is the source of our higher brain functions, then it shouldn't be too long until science is able to understand them in terms of genetics and biochemistry.
I say the jury is still out, and I'm interested to see what is discovered in the next few decades given our recent advances in mapping the various genomes.
February 14, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Godhunter oops Hunterdog
The search before you is helping the unspoken with no blog comments. Basically this is the thrashing floor as explained in scripture. Pros and Cons need to be brought forth.
Would you answer this please?
Imagine being in a car accident . The emergency ambulance is at the scene. Hunterdog is barely alive. The paramedic says he's not going to make it. This Hunterdog already knows within himself. What would you do?
-Take a chance satan is real and decide to join him. After all satan was once an angel in heaven and was able to convience one third of heavens angels to follow him. Must be a smart guy who works for the good of others and would sacrifice his life to serve the people unselfishly.
-Call upon all that you have written in this blog for help such as the evolotion theory letting others convience you there is nothing reserved for your eternity and fold to it.
-Plead for your life? Father in the name of Jesus, I don't even know if you are real. If you are real come into me now. Forgive me of all my sins. My life is about to end here. If you truly died for all and see every sparrow fall and know every hair on my head I need help. Send the Angels to come get me. God you promised Angels would walk before me and after me ,you said I would be the head and not tail. The wonderful annointing could flow from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. That my eternity would be with you. Please open the eyes of all my family and friends that I have misled while on earth, as I myself ascend into Heaven. I did not mean to lead anyone astray and could have easily been cheated by the Worlds influence. Thank you for sending someone bold in my undeserving life that told me about Jesus. A peace that passeth all understanding. Yes I feel it . I see ......
Please answer truthfully my brother and add any choices that may better fit you.
February 14, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKis54...
February 14, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
7,
I would hope that the accident occured near a Level 1 Trauma Center with lots of highly evolved apes present.
Sorry I know the question was for Hunterdog, but this reprobate couldn't resist...
February 14, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
This is a place where All are welcome. Religious or not religious. No boundries (unless the Pilot referee bounces us out). Basically a question and answer session.
Really enjoy the study of all beliefs. Would like to request in put on Routt Countys most popular religion called Wicca. Know this out rages some. Sorry you may have to leave this site but here we will get down to the grit of all beliefs.
These are only a few insites about Wicca I need some help with it.
-No God or satan.You are your own god.
-Most spend whats called a year and a day in black clothes and rituals before becoming a real witch.
-Cast spells both good and bad.
-Excepts anyone into the Steamboat covet . South Routt covet not as large.
-Must have sexual relations with some one that's not your partner.
-Out of the body experiences such as turning into a bird.
February 14, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
More Wicca information
-Prefer to worship creation and not the creator(God). This reminds me of some of the previous blogs,please enlighten and help correct any wrong info.
-Refer to themselves as pagan.
-Astrology directs ceremonies such as moon stages that influence the better times to cast spells.
-Defines witchcaft as a spiritual system that fosters free thought and will of individual, encourges understanding of earth and nature.
-Prefered symbols the pentagram,5 sided star with circle around it used in satanic ceremonies for centuries but wicca does not claim satan.
- Celtic knots-oval pointed circles,partly forming a triangle.
-Turtles as bumper stickers. This is the Eypqtian turtle.
-Butterflies as bumper stickers. This symbol represents partly the freedom gays can finally have because wicca encourages gays to be in wicca.
-Crystals used to see out of body experiences and healing.
One of the may parts that bring me heart ache is limiting our brother and sisters that are gay to just one religion. Should we not welcome anyone? Thats why He said Whosoever may come. If the religion you belong to does not welcome whosoever then why? The church body is suppose to a mixture of all. Its like an intensive care room. No one in there is with out sin. Yes, I know the Leviticus and other scriptures but faith comes by hearing, how else can our bro./sis know the direction He sees for all? This is not saying let anyone who comes through the door today, preach today. But saying get whosoever in to sample the goods.
If today you belong to a group that does not love and welcome all, consider leading them to the whosoever scriptures. If that fells consider changing fellowship groups.
February 15, 2008 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
Hd
thanks for earth, wind and fire info. Forgot another major wicca symbol is the 3 dolphins in a circle usually a necklace but locally a bumper sticker more popular. Each person is said to favor more in one of those directions personality wise such as water being calm.
As for the question
I think it is sad and not fair gays are not welcome in all religions.To just be pushed into a few with hardly no choice breaks my heart. Love one another went right down the toilet.
Se ya Monday try to round up real life wicca input so we can all better learn about each others lives and therefore respect one another.
Have a great weekend.
February 15, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
I won't debate religious beliefs with anyone. There are many differing view points and faiths that all put trust in a higher being. Each person should be free to worship this "God" as they see fit. Nobody can dictate another's faith views. However as a Christian we state that the great mystery of faith is that "God has died, God has risen, God will come again." Based on that we know that faith is, just that "a belief in that which we can not tangibly deal with". I pity anyone who believes that they are the end all of existence and that there is nothing greater than themselves. If for no other reason but that it must make for a miserable and lonely existence to be taking on life all alone and to know that this is as good as it gets. Besides how self absorbed must someone be to think that there is nothing greater or more powerful than themselves. Anyhow... Great Article
February 15, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
I've got a lot of wicca furniture. Great for kicking back in and drinking killer banana daquiris while sun worshipping....
February 15, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Token ( anonymous ) says...
LOL
February 15, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama ( anonymous ) says...
I am not even going to touch this one....but I do want to make a point...
id- How dare you insult our teachers as you did on your 2/13/08 9:16 post??????? You should be so ahamed of your self! Education is an honorable profession and those that are willing to do so on a sh*tH*ole salery and continue for years deserve praise, what exactly is your degree in, besides oral anal leakage?
I wont argue religion, Hunterdog and his 10th grade son seem to being to a fine job of enlightening others to possibilities. but please stop insulting those fine folks who teach our kids. I sure in Hell (if per above arguements, it exists) wouldn't want most of you to explain the history of the world to my child..
BTW....Hadley...I like the wicca furniture and daquiris theory....goes back to the ape thing, right?
February 15, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kielbasa ( Matthew Stoddard ) says...
Apes? Only if it's a Banana Daquiri! And all the hair fits thru the wicca furniture perfectly, but can get caught every once in a while.
February 15, 2008 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama ( anonymous ) says...
Ouch..........
February 15, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
"Cornelius: [reading from the sacred scrolls of the apes] Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death."
"George Taylor: A planet where apes evolved from men? There's got to be an answer."
"George Taylor: I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be..."
"Dr. Zaius: You are right, I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself."
-Planet of the Apes 1968-
February 15, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgTdN6...
February 16, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6G1bL...
February 16, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
Bandmama,
Bachelors in Engineering, Masters in applied math.
I think that people of my generation are all pretty much aware that the dumbing down of the school systems during the 60s and 70s so that "disadvantaged" students could compete has thrown the United States back about 50 years in our ability to compete on a global basis. Even the SATs had to be radically changed to compensate for the erosion.
When your 9th grade science teacher has to sound out the word "retina" as he reads it from the textbook, things are pretty sad. And that was BEFORE things went completely to pot.
February 16, 2008 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
id04sp ( anonymous ) says...
"Soylent Green is people."
February 17, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski ( anonymous ) says...
Having scanned these posts, I am proud to be an Atheist.
February 17, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now ( anonymous ) says...
Faith is Faith
Lack there of is lack there of.
Live and let live and get back to the more important threads.
February 19, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outsiderlookingin ( anonymous ) says...
Id And Sbvor you could have saved a bunch of typing by suggesting that people read "Guns Germs and Steel' and that would explain alot about who and why certain things evolved the way they did.
Oneski--- see you in that smokey hallway and see if your still an atheist.!!!!
February 20, 2008 at 2:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski ( anonymous ) says...
Outsider You sound just like all the other brain-washed lemmings
February 20, 2008 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
colorado123
Good chance they will pray for you first.
February 20, 2008 at 7:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seven ( anonymous ) says...
colorado123
This is a learning zone about all religions even the ones no one wishes to talk about much. Glad for input would like to hear more.
February 21, 2008 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
liberal lemming dog hunterdog
Why are the postings that smell of lemming liberal news also your views? Why do you follow instead of lead? Those lemmings like the real lemming rodents that follow one after the other directly off a cliff or into the sea seem to be able to easily mislead hunterdog. Better think for yourself my friend, the others are laughing at those so readily in position to follow. Deep study and confirmation of the truth instead of copying their thoughts may be a path to look at. Best Wishes.
February 24, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble ( anonymous ) says...
Enough with the poor lemmings already!!
They really don't commit mass suicide.
They just have a strong urge to merge.
"While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not the case. Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat"
Hmmm, that reminds me of a few other threads here....
February 25, 2008 at 8:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble ( anonymous ) says...
And hunter dog,...
LiIke most rodents, they taste much better after
being battered and fried. Preferable with a Tempura
batter.
February 25, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
lemmingdog
Remember we also study the stagies of liberals. This includes the always present and repeated phrase of "calling anything that seems religious ignorant/illiterate". Non-liberals are quite interested in any information because it is so easy to refer most anything directly back to the Bible. Must say I truly care just as much for all the liberals as anyone else. As for simple writings notice people will read comments if they assume the writer is less educated than they are. But gloss over what maybe presumed an educated fools writings. Remember this is exactly in the Bible.
Friend be open minded read all information available. Appearance of a callused heart would at this junction descibe hunterdog. Very sorry someone has broke the updated continued learning cycle to cause closed mindedness.Break the cycle and imagine having directives of knowledge not influenced by the crowd. Knowledge truly ends fear .
February 25, 2008 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
hunterdog
More than once before excepting Jesus Gods Son into my life tried to understand what the Bible was saying. Confusion and despair. Stumbled blindly.
After the choice to freely except Him MUCH understanding flowed. No, overflowed.
Before reading scripture hunterdog pray for wisdom.
Personally I prefer reversing to Hebrew and going back centuries. Artifacts in Jerusalem keep surfacing and it will not be possible to comprehend without knowing all the Jewish traditions back in time. Leaving no stone unturned and absorbing knowledge gained from all sources and especially my liberal friends[normally a good challenge,but must be honest hunterdog seems more of a follower] from even the far west.
Everyday amazed at how someone like me is not perfect but absolutely forgiven.
With one hand up we grab His Hand with the other hand out we are suppose to help others . But it does not happen sometimes. Much apologies we are so full our cup runneth over. When His spirit comes over one. Well cannot even put words to it. Maybe someone else has the message for hunterdog to visualize better. Holy,Holy,Holy. Bless His Precious name . To God be all the glory and nothing of me.
Summary
From my experience NO COMMITMENT NO KNOWLEDGE
Only hunterdog can choose to have God remove the cloak of darkness blocking knowledge. None of us can do it for you. Much prayer sent your way hunterdog. Ever wonder why your eyes keep being focused on this site? The annointing of Gods Holy spirit calls to those reading. It is nothing of the writer. The writer only prays for what simple words are suppose to reach those who visit for a some kind- not sure what kind of a message. He accepts anyone at anytime period. The confirmation for hunterdog and "proof" you seek will be seen and felt in never being able to forget these words and some nights you may even wake up remembering that quite surely He actually cares and seems to really be the only one who does in hunterdogs circle of friends.
February 25, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble ( anonymous ) says...
Wow, michya, am I to understand you read the original Hebrew version? Having English as a second language might explain some of your language issues in the posts.
God Bless.
February 25, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
babble
Good to see a few recognize michyah is a Hebrew word.
February 25, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
God/ No God: Bible/ No Bible: Creation vs. Evolution....
Quick question for thought; Anybody ever found or dug up the remains of a fish/human/cat/bird??????? Hmmmmmmmm
February 25, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
michyah ( anonymous ) says...
hunterdog
If for some reason His words did not penetrate, sorry my friend please walk away the words were for some one who reads the site but never comments. We all get to choose our destiny. Loudly you have chosen the way for hunterdog. The Bible promised this but its still heart breaking to see a very few refuse Him .Would prefer all to at least get a sample of the Glory...... Just thankful someone helped me else I could have been you.
Answers:
Old testament was before Jesus came. In the New Testament he changed around some laws etc. to clarify.
Slavery
Words in those days do not have the same meaning as today. Master then would be director/boss today.
Slave back then would be worker/team player today.
Today we use master/slave as terms to explain a master and slave cylinders.The master cylinder on the firewall actuates the secondary/slave cylinder to engage the clutch. Basically means part 1of 2.
Glad to answer these but do not expect to understand the Biblical answers without divine[nothing in me-talking about Gods intervention] guidance. Thats why hunterdog circles the camp but cannot force his way over to eat the lambs. The Shepard always keeps watch over his sheep day and night.
February 25, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
Valiant effort, but its futile.
Do you think you could get some jihadi kook to reject the quran? Its a total waste of time.
It brings to mind the old adage, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind's made up."
Think of all the fruitcake ideas that have traction. Its embarrassing. Indigo children? Scientology? The book of Mormon? Its all total insanity. Yet people swear by it.
Think about this discourse, its an online forum. Any goofball freakshow can pipe up, and they do. You're probably arguing with one of Steamboats many narcissists, know-it-all prophets trying to salve the pain of their own dysfunctional existence.
But, if you want to fight the good fight, know two things...
1) You're absolutely correct
2) You're not alone.
February 25, 2008 at 7:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog/Don't think so, most archaeological finds reveal fairly clear cut species. I was just wondering while there are small changes, the general species tend to remain the same. A dino-dog is still some form of canine: if per say we ALL (all living organisms)evolved from the same gene pool as you say, wouldn't (without a perfect God) there be some screw ups along the way? Remember we would be leaving this process to chance without a God. Hence is there any evidence of the "cathippohumanfishdog" or any other combination thereof ever being found? What is there to misrepresent????
February 26, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
The Platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus)
February 26, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob ( anonymous ) says...
to believe or not to believe in God is one's personal choice. As for me, I choose to believe!
While there are two sides to every coin my coin faces heads up, now and always.
February 26, 2008 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now ( anonymous ) says...
Little lemmings marching off to their doom. Over the cliff to fall hundreds of feet to their apperent doom to be drowned or battered to death be the sea..... waitaminute.....battered.. by.. the, battered?
Battered and fried?
LOL
February 26, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble ( anonymous ) says...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm....
Battered rodent!
February 26, 2008 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
hunterdog
The Bible does not say the earth is flat it says it is round. Isaiah40:22. Don't your read?
February 26, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
You misused Ephesians 6:5. That verse does not condone slavery. The Apostle Paul was writing to the church at Ephesus in the Roman Empire where slavery was condoned. Paul was addressing the facts as they were. Many gentile christians came out of the Roman pagan system. Some were slaves, some were scholars who worshipped knowledge or gnosis like yourself.
February 26, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
You should read all of Matthew 10. Jesus was not condoning slavery here. He was using it as a literary device to get His point across. You should handle God's word better. He does describe it as sharper than any two edged sword and you appear to be cutting yourself with it.
February 26, 2008 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
You should read all of Exodus 21. You loosely use the term slavery to try and bring all of historical world slavery against the Bible, but you failed to read the part in Exodus 21:2 "If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing". Hunterdog this narrows slavery down to just Hebrew people not the entire world and how the world abused slaves as you imply. You should read the Bible carefully.
February 26, 2008 at 7:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
You should read Deuteronomy 15:12-15
Look at how the Jewish people were commanded to treat servants that were let free in the seventh year. "And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor(most likely threshing floor grain), and out of thy winepress (notice how He commanded them to give fresh food right out of the wine press or flock not last years reserves): of that wherewith the Lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him." Basically the former slave went away with a share of the bounty he helped his master acquire during his enslavement. The master was to bless his exservant as he was blessed by God. In Deuteronomy 15:15 God reminds Hebrew slave owners that they were once slaves too in Egypt. The pagan Egyptians treated slaves quite differently than the Hebrew people did.
February 26, 2008 at 7:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
hunter dog
The Bible says the earth is round. Sounds empirical to me.
Big Bang theory needs tinkering. A large release of energy has never been shown to lead to anything organized. Yet a controlled release of energy can. Europe after WWII was evidence of large uncontrolled energy releases. No evidence it organized the land, cities or politics. The Marshal Plan after WWII is evidence of a controlled release of energy. Europe rose from the ashes land and cities restored. Hunterdog would have to bury his head in the sand to avoid the truth evident here in recent history. Why? A controlled release of energy requires an organizer, a Creator. That is the problem with evolution. It claims everything slowly over time got more complex and that defys common sense. No degrees required. That is why college professors that are athiest or agnostic struggle with the Bible. God and creation are a challenge to their false god of gnosis. Knowlege is good, but with all your getting get understanding.
February 27, 2008 at 7:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob ( anonymous ) says...
if I am a lemming marching off to the sea because I believe in God then so be it, I'll be a lemming, fried, grilled, or devoured raw.
God Bless all, even those that have choosen not to believe.
"the meek shall inherit the earth"
The wealthy shall inherit Steamboat!
February 27, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
If what you believe is not true, would you want to know the truth? Really?
February 27, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog,
Circle:
3: something in the form of a circle or section of a circle: as a: DIADEM b: an instrument of astronomical observation the graduated limb of which consists of an entire circle c: a balcony or tier of seats in a theater d: a circle formed on the surface of a sphere by the intersection of a plane that passes through it e: ROTARY 2 4: an area of action or influence : REALM (Merriam Websters online dictionary)
Imagine if you could look down on earth like the astronauts did from the moon, which is like what God describes when he likens people as the size of grasshoppers. Basically He is describing His point of view. From this view the earth does look like a circle we can only see one hemisphere which corresponds to definition D above. I also noted definition 4. The earth is His realm and compared to Him we are like grasshoppers.
Proverbs 8:27 "drew a circle"
The NSRV uses the words drew a circle while the KJV says "set a compass" and footnotes it to "drew a circle" both describe an action and what do you draw a circle with? A compass.
Compass (Merriam Websters online)
1: to devise or contrive often with craft or skill : PLOT 2: ENCOMPASS3 a: BRING ABOUT, ACHIEVE b: to get into one's possession or power : OBTAIN4: COMPREHEND
So this agrees with God creating the earth or should I say "devise or contrive often with craft or skill"
February 27, 2008 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
Date: 1886
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted 2 : a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction
Hunterdog I think you lack imagination. I'm not the one who cuts and pastes from "talk origins" for ninety percent of my discussion per previous posts. You seem to be very upset about the big bang theory. WHERE is your "empirical" evidence that the large uncontrolled release of energy like the big bang led to matter in the universe organizing into stars, constellations, solar systems and other heavenly structures. Common sense. Here I'll show you in a lab. I'll take your pocket watch and set it in the petri dish. Then I pull out my five pound sledge and smash it. Wow ohh ahhh! The watch is quite a bit more dis-organized not more organized. Oh I'm sorry the watch is too complex for you. Let's see. We'll take a rock and drill a hole in it and pack it full of stick dynamite. Bang! Big Bang! Wow look at all the little rocks scattered around and dust and smoke. Every one knows those rocks are not going to get back together again. If this is a strawman argument why have you not "easily confuted it". Or is this strawman to tuff for dah wee wittle dog who huffs and puffs (oops to close to home hunter?) and can't blow this straw house down? (THEY DON'T "ST5RUGGLE" WITH IT...THEY , FOR THE MOST PART, SEE IT AS A SOCIOLOGICAL DOCUMENT, NOTHING MORE. CERTAINLY NOT THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF "god"
Should I go get the definition of narrow minded Hunterdog?
Your Daniel 4:10-11 argument is poorly interpretted. Center of the earth. Not the core of the earth as in location, but the center of the room, in the midst of the room. The tree reached to heaven. "to" does not have to mean all the way up into heaven it means towards that direction and in this context of the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had it is implying that the tree was the tallest in all the earth, but what you really missed is this is a dream. The tree is symbolic of king Nebuchadnezzar. "end of the whole earth" does not imply a flat earth circle or square. In the Strongs concordance "earth" in hebrew can be defined as the whole earth or a portion of land or country or nation. Basically the king was the most powerful man in all of his known realm. Webster's agrees on this too.
February 27, 2008 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
For you Hunter you are fueling your unbelief towards the Bible by attacking it with knowledge from athiest websites, agnostic websites. Stop Hunter. I mean it STOP. Think. You have taken on the spirit of those websites. Lay them aside for awhile. Use your own head unbiased by evolutionists and christians- yes even christians. God delights in those who seek after Him. Even Paul was proud of the Bereans who never took him at his word, they listened and then researched for themselves to see if he was right or wrong. God loves when we pursue Him. I took up the Bible and the first thing I looked for was Easter, Christmas, Lent and I was shocked. What! The Bible doesn't have the "christian" holidays I thought. I didn't give up. I wanted to KNOW why they were not in there. It turns out those holidays are pagan holidays mixed with christian words to appear christian. The real holidays of God or festivals are Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles. Now I UNDERSTAND why they did it. Some people thought they could win converts by incorporating aspects of the local theology into the church theology. Unfortunately it got away from them and was made into doctrine that was false. The road to ruin is paved with good intentions. I don't want you to believe because I said so. I don't want you to not believe because they (talk origins etc.) said so. Believe because YOU know so(not them or me). Consider the views of as many anti-God websites as you can find, I have. Consider as many pro-God websites as you can find. Listen, compare, dive in, But don't do it with hate and vengence. They can blind a person. I've been there.
February 27, 2008 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
The prophet Jeremiah wrote "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord." Jeremiah 17:5 People will betray you, steal from you, lie to you, manipulate you for their own personal gain. Watch people closely. You will know them by their fruit and fruit takes a while to ripen. Trust in the Lord He will never leave you or forsake you.
February 27, 2008 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
katrinkakelly ( anonymous ) says...
WOW! Tremendous amount of posts here. No comment on Isreal but-
Only one man split time in our history. Like it or not.
The book of Kings, in the Bible, has a mathematical probability rating of 10 to the tenth power!
I bet if your plane was going down you would probably scream JESUS!....................................................
February 28, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog - if what you believe is not true, would you want to know the truth? simple question, simple yes or no answer.
February 28, 2008 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
One may want to first read verses 1-7. It talks about Love. Without Love...our actions, our words, our predictions & prophesies, our knowledge, our speech will all be meaningless. Verse 8 was not a prediction.
February 28, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Having just returned from Utah I am confused as to which remnant of the House of Israel I should be praying for? How about the Lamanites which are supposedly residing in the four corners region? I can't seem to figure out which book is true. Egoeater, you seem to talk to god frequently, so could you ask which version of "his" book is correct? and then be so kind as to have him explain why. I really love the desert so I hope he picks Edward Abby's - Desert Solitaire - unless that doesn't qualify as a religiously pious text in his eyes...
February 28, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
If posts were inches of snow, would today be a powder day?
February 28, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
techno_babble ( anonymous ) says...
Dog, I'm gonna call you on that LOL
See this for information about accuracy
http://nomorelol.com/
LOI
February 28, 2008 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining ( anonymous ) says...
Hadley
That definitely will not qualify. He shoots the stupid snake and doesn't question why God sent it to him the first place.
February 28, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
Meanwhile..............
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/a...
February 28, 2008 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
"People are trapped in history and history is trapped in people"
No one should have to die in conflict, especially children.
February 28, 2008 at 6:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Suggested reading:
"The Painted Bird" - Jerzy Kosinski - 1968
February 28, 2008 at 7:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog
Sorry to upset you so bad this morning. Seriously I see there is a bigger issue at play here. In several previous posts of yours you talk about what you call God's infatuation with people's private parts. This mornings post of yours begs the question; Were you abused, even sexually abused in your fundamentalist christian childhood? If so I see the pain and understand your hatred towards anything of God. I know God does not condone this.
February 28, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
We ARE drifting into a South Park episode!
February 28, 2008 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hadley
Never heard of Edward Abby. You appear to be mormon. As for "which book"? Genesis through Revelation. This set of books the Roman Catholics set up as the canon, but I have learned enough about the Roman Catholic history to not stop there and or trust them. The Bible does mention Jasher. From what I've read so far it seems right. I've read some of the Book of Thomas and my gut feeling was something was amiss so I don't trust it. I'm always on the look out for more info. It seems though Hadley that you are leaning towards a finding for a particular denomination on my part. I don't have one. I claim no denomination. Few churches are free from traditions of men. Many churches are social clubs. People only go to see other people, not God. They have social hierarchies. Soft tickly speeches to tickle your ears and make you feel just right with where you are. Some churches are really just a local branch of a larger corporation and take their marching orders from headquarters thousands of miles away. They require canned sermons. The Holy Ghost is not there. My church? He says that if two or more of you are gathered together in my name there I am with you. A good real Holy Ghost filled church is rare and highly prized by me. If people say they have such a church great, but in your heart wait and look for the fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
February 28, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
My dear egoeater,
The only thing that I believe in is doubt.
February 28, 2008 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
and a treed bear is bad for the fruit...
February 28, 2008 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Katrinkakelly is right.
God bless Israel.
God bless the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Everyone who sets their hand to destroy Israel, Jerusalem and the Jewish people will be destroyed.
God is upset no doubt with the world today, soon the day is coming when He calls for the wheat harvest to come in, afterwards He is going to take the world through the twilight zone.
February 28, 2008 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hadley,
Merriam Webster
Main Entry:doubt
Function:noun
Date: 13th century
1 a: uncertainty of belief or opinion that often interferes with decision-making.
Sounds like a personal problem Hadley I'll pray that you figure it out.
February 28, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
I say God bless powder days...What are you yapping about ego?
February 28, 2008 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
egoeater,
doubt is what sets men afoot to explore both externally and internally.
You are welcome to pray for me and I shall shall pity you. I shall pity you the same way that I would pity the existance of a happy drunk.
I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to converse with you anymore. It reminds me of pulling the wings off of a fly as a child. It is momentarily entertaining, but then one realizes that it is cruel and unneccesary.
February 29, 2008 at 6:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining ( anonymous ) says...
HunterDog
See that's the problem... you don't play by the "rules" of fundamentalist Christianity (what ever that actually is). See you have to think in absolutes. Either you love God or you hate him. You either believe or you don't. The Bible is either true or it isn't. Im sure you know Dog but for the benefit of others, the Bible is actually more meaningful if you read it for all of its' metaphorical meanings and it actually makes it more pertinent if you do. However doing so does rear the ugly axiom head of the absolutist approach of "if you question faith, you have no faith". Its not a matter of questioning faith but exploring its' true meaning rather than as the great Joseph Campbell said "Getting stuck in the metaphor" Campbell said that if we look at all religions from a metaphorical stand point we would see that the basis for all religions is the same. Instead of taking the literal translation of the "words" of a religious document figure out what they "mean". Once people figure this out they will realize that the religious institutions of the world have been manipulating these religious doctrines since their inception through various interpretaions to keep the poor from eating the rich and to justify unspeakable human atrocities, wars and greed
February 29, 2008 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining ( anonymous ) says...
Suggested reading: "Hero with a Thousand Faces" Joseph Campbell
"...mighty God is the living man. You can fool some people sometimes but you can't fool all the people all the time... so now you see the light...stand up for your rights"- Bob Marley
February 29, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining ( anonymous ) says...
Ooo OOo can I have a go Hunter?....
Biblical Interpretation #1
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins -Matthew 1:18-25
Essentially before Joseph and Mary did the deed she found out she was pregnant and swore up and down that she had no idea how. To keep from being public humiliated Joseph kept his fiances infidelity to himself and had an epiphany and decide to keep the child as a miracle child. This powerful stuff because Jesus is essentially an illegitimate child whose "call to adventure" is to save all of the illegitimate children of God from the injustices of the "self proclaimed righteous" and save us from our sins:like infidelity.
February 29, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
Re: Biblical absurdity#10......You forgot to mention that Noah was in the ark for 53 weeks countering your extinction theory. He took of every clean animal and beast (not killing each and every offspring produced during the time on the ark) and offered a sacrifice to the Lord. The Lord smelled the soothing aroma, symbolic of a smell of satisfaction. Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts on man's heart was continually evil."
February 29, 2008 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
QuitYerWhining ( anonymous ) says...
oisyo wrote:
"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts on man's heart was continually evil."
So explain this one to me.... if Christians do not necessarily believe in "free will" ie God has a predestined plan for all of us... they why when he "created" us did he make us inherently evil? Amusement? Orrrrr... maybe that's what theologians tell us to keep the "enlightened" in their place. Repent and accept your lowly role on earth as part of your penitence and ye shall be received in heaven and it will have all been worth your misery on earth.
":if you know what life is really worth you will look for yours [heaven] on earth.."- Bob Marley
February 29, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Quiter
God did not create us inherently evil. We made a choice.
February 29, 2008 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog
Sorry you don't know what praying really is.
February 29, 2008 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Dunderdog
I knew you couldn't read but now you tell me you can't add. Of every clean beast Noah took on by sevens. I thought you said you read the Bible more than any of us. Does reading for comprehension mean anything to you? oh yeah Genesis 7:2
March 1, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hadley-dog or is it Hunterburg-Press
Your bi-polar half slipped up. The only prayer I mentioned was to Hadley.
March 1, 2008 at 12:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-Burg
The first seperation of darkness and light was the spiritual not heavenly bodies.
March 1, 2008 at 12:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-Burg
I thought you read the Bible more than us. Its Luke 11:24 not Mark 11:24
I'm glad you qouted this though. You and your father have much in common. You both like to twist scripture and skew it against God. You twist and set it up as a stumbling block to place in the front of others. You are not content to deny His existence but to also blind others who look for him and guide them into the ditch. You twisted it for Eve and you made them stumble as the so called "religious" did in the 1st century. You still mislead people with cunningly devised fables in these end times. You should have read all of Luke 11 and you would have seen that the Holy Spirit keeps the unclean spirits out when he indwells you. John 8:44 "you are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murder from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."
When I hear you Hunter I also hear him that is in you.
March 1, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
egoeater,
Fearing knowledge is no way to go through life. Again, you have my pity.
Beelzeburg
March 1, 2008 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob ( anonymous ) says...
Bob Marley? It's no doubt that Marley is high enough to reach the heavens. The problem is that if he were to open his eyes while there and see where he actually was he would most likely bleed to death "Mon." I and I Believe!
March 1, 2008 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
Reference Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:13-14 for the time Noah was in the ark.
March 1, 2008 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
osiyo ( anonymous ) says...
Genesis 8:13 begins with...Now it came about in the six hundred and first year, first month....
Genesis 8:14 begins with...And in the second month, twenty-seventh day of that month, the earth was dry.
A little over a year had passed.
March 1, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
whoa whoa whoa
egoeater caught hunterdog in a flat lie. Major foul up on hunterdogs part about being prayed for. At least have the decency to admit it hunterdog. I respect people who admit they are wrong. I worry when they hide it and quickly change the subject. Hunterdogs responese remind me of someone who has shifty eyes. You know they are lying to you. This conversation about creation and evolution is amazing. I used to think christians had a poor arguement, but after watching how the evolution crowd has presented themselves I get sick. Especially hunterdog. The christians have argued diligently and directly and hunterdog never once said "you are right on that part" when caught in a flat lie. When wrong hunterdog quietly drops the line of questioning and loudly proclaims a new problem as if that could cover up his foolishness. I say the christians are winning this argument very well because they at least maintained good character, and I am surprised by their convincing arguments. Hunterdogs method of debating evolution casts a bad light on all those like him. I've seen this tendancy to attack like this before but never so bad. Watching hunterdog debate is like watching a kid drive square peg in a round hole. It just makes you shake your head and wonder are all athiests this dumb?
March 1, 2008 at 7:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jester1cp ( anonymous ) says...
I posted this in the Nerney forum.A suggestion to all the people on all these forum.Step outside breath some fresh air.I know cabin fever sux but get out from behind your computers and live life.
From earlier post people know my views on Israel.I dont have to keep flaming/ taking jabs at each other.I dont have to jusitfy my views.I know where you stand,you know where i stand.
March 1, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
Nibbler
I must respectfully disagree. Hunterdog is raising reasonable points regarding the veracity of the bible. His adversaries then claim the devil is in him, and he is the son of the devil. These are ignorant, childish, and fear-mongering remarks. It is laughably adolescent, and arrogant, to claim someone is working for the devil. Yet, you give these same people the "character" high ground? I strongly disagree.
There are MANY highly moral, and highly intelligent atheists. Too many to list, but a quick internet search will provide ample esteemed examples. Generally speaking, these people find ethical behavior its own reward. I find that connotes a more admirable character than behavior that is driven by the carrot and stick approach of religion.
March 1, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColoradoNative ( anonymous ) says...
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnew...
March 2, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
-Hunterdog flatout lie #1-
In your posting of Feb 26 @ 6:51 you state "You see, Jesus never spoke out against slavery, he condoned it as well."
A few postings later egoeater called you on it and you never replied and actually loudly proclaimed a new atack line.
-Hunterdog flatout lie #2-
In the same posting you continue to rail about "biblical slavery" and once again egoeater called you on it citing several verses that outlined how slaves should be treated.
Hunterdog never responds and loudly carries on about "strawman" and "watch" arguments.
Hunterdog, maybe I'm wrong, but through all your postings I never see where you say "you're right" or "I was wrong on that, sorry" when you are clearly and directly shown to be wrong especially on how you qoute the Bible, you never respond. You just dig up something else to divert attention to a mistake or flaw. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I used to have that problem too. To always be right and never admit wrong when your wrong causes people to lose respect for you. Especially in a debate, if people see you lie or subvert on one thing they will wonder what else have you lied or tried to subvert them on.
Lastly
If christianity was "created by men to control men" then why did they create it to focus worship and devotion to God. If man had made it they would have directed devotion to man like most if not all the other religions in the world.
March 2, 2008 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan ( anonymous ) says...
"The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God."
Johann Wolfgang Goethe
March 3, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog,
Thank you for the time and ideas you've offered regarding your perceptions on the credibility or lack thereof of the Bible. In my experience discussions such as this often compel people to conduct research for themselves that they wouldn't otherwise undertake. Given the vital importance of the topic, I believe a personal and thorough examination is a good thing - so thank you for keeping the discussion alive.
A little background on me, for what it's worth.
Perhaps like you now, at one time I had very skeptical and cynical ('intelllectual', I thought) views of religion, spirituality and Christianity in particular. However, after reaching many of my educational goals, embarking on a challenging and gratifying professional career, marrying the 'woman of my dreams' and then starting a family, I decided to confront head-on the issues I'd considered for years regarding religion. I started with Christianity, mainly because it seemed to be a sitting duck - it was intrusive and offensive, and, I believed, likely to be very easily debunked. My intention was to reveal the fraud that I was sure existed using my training and education in historical research, and then move on to analyzing other religions and moral/ethical belief systems. However, after nearly 6 months of research, I was in for a surprise. You see, I was also an attorney, trained to objectively analyze and identify strengths and weaknesses in conflicting arguments, and I came to this stunning realization: although neither side's argument was without serious flaws, the stronger argument was that Jesus Christ was who He (and the Bible) said He was and that He did indeed rise from the grave to save us from our sins. In fact, I ended up on my knees, tears in my eyes, begging for the forgiveness of a creator and savior that in my previous arrogance and misguided thinking believed did not even exist. In an amazing (yes, magical) turn of events, I'd gone from self-assured purveyor of 'facts' to convicted follower of Jesus Christ.
BTW - tying this back into your focus - this conclusion that I had reached led me to cease questioning those topics that you now seem fixated upon. For example, Jesus had incorporated the Old Testament in his teachings - and that is now good enough for me to believe by faith their veracity. In a sense, I've quit sweating and debating the molecular makeup of the dirt on the forest floor and am now enjoying the view of the valley from the mountain top.
March 3, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan ( anonymous ) says...
(con't)
I'm not illiterate, uneducated nor naive, yet I believe without hesitation or doubt that you are 100% wrong in many of your views on Christianity. Granted, I will be in the front row at the question and answer period that I very much hope will be a part of orientation on day 1 in heaven - because so much doesn't make sense to me. Nevertheless, I believe without reservation. ('Delusional', is probably your critical and arrogant judgment; 'blessed with the gift of faith' is my perception.) And, as a tremendous bonus to my understanding and beliefs, I now seem to posses (most of the time, at least) the 'peace that surpasses all understanding' that comes with faith. Let me tell you, it alone is worth the pursuit of Christ.
My suggestion to all those who have read this thread and have any doubts whatsoever about what they should believe, is this:
Do your own research. A good place to start may be the foundation upon which Christianity is built i.e. validity of the hisorical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Please go about your research with an open-mind, and not intending to find evidence to support whatever you already believe - because that is what you'll find. Follow the evidence wherever it may lead you. I'd also suggest try to stay clear of whatever sites, books authors etc to which any extremists (e.g. hunterdog) may direct you.
If you conclude the resurrection did not happen, so be it. You can join hunterdog in his curious choice to attack and mock those of us who have reached different conclusions, or you can agree to disagree and move on in your search for meaning and truth. On the other hand, if you conclude as I have, that the preponderance of the evidence supports the likelihood that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, just as the Bible says He did, rejoice.... and you then may want to read the Book of John - it's a good overview of Christianity. Based upon my personal experience, your life will forever be changed for the better, and the 'joy that surpasses all understanding' will be yours.
March 3, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ethan ( anonymous ) says...
(con't)
One last thought, Hunterdog: You're obviously amazingly intelligent and very self-confident, so I imagine you've allowed yourself to do some worst-case analysis regrading your beliefs and hypotheses. If so, have you considered this question:
'What if I'm wrong?'
What if the Bible is the word of God the creator and Jesus Christ was the son of God and did die on a cross for our sins and arose from the dead and the only way to eternal life is through belief and faith in him?
On my side, if I'm right in my faith - well there's life eternal in a very real place filled with love and loving people, worship, hanging with God and of course very real, beautiful scenery (and yes, I do believe I'll be skiing). But if I'm wrong - what have I lost? I've tried to emulate Jesus and that has led to my being more loving, compassionate, productive and oriented toward helping others in any way that I can. My children look up to me, peers seem to respect me and best of all, I walk around feeling peace despite chaotic and horrendous circumstances - all due to what I've believed is the love of Jesus. If it turns out I was wrong and fell for the greatest hoax of all time, I'm ok with this 'price' I've paid.
Now, Hunterdog, back to you. if your ego's allowed you to consider the unthinkable - what if you
are wrong.?
Ouch.
March 3, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt ( anonymous ) says...
'if, if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a better christmas'
hunterdog-being a "recovering cathholic"(me) ...i love ya man!your comments are right on, thanks!:)
March 5, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldskoolstmbt ( anonymous ) says...
hunter- i wonder if seven, ethan, faith,ego, mic, etc..believe in santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy as well..you see, i have this REALLY old book that says so!:) ur feb.8 at 9:53 blog...wow,i never laughed so hard!and now i know many think i will go to h*!! for saying such a thing, however, to my advantage, i don't live my life according to the unknown question of "what happens when we die"...this whole blog thing has become quite entertaining..just a little bone i thought i'd throw ya!
March 5, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
drumski ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter,
It's a shame that you don't open up to organized religion......Sunday morning services are unbelievably entertaining......hysterical in fact. I recommend it to everyone when the football season is over.
March 5, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oneski ( anonymous ) says...
let them bomb each other of the face of the earth---problem solved
March 6, 2008 at 7:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog- Really enjoying your knowledge of the Bible, curious however if you do not believe in God (or a "gawd"). How you have come to be, in my opinion such a fabulous philosopher in this area. Your knowledge of the Bible and it's contents (although I don't necessarily agree w/ your views) is awe inspiring. I have met many devout Christians that are unable to quote verbatim or even find specific scriptures for a cause yet you can. At first I thought that you were sitting around referencing direct quotes to make a point however (and you may be) you appear to be someone who has spent many hours looking for answers (apparently not yet found) to have obtained this ornate array of Biblical knowledge. What drives you to do this when you claim this text is all false??? Please don't say to prove we are all wrong I feel as if to do so demeans both of us. (You appear to be much more of a deep thinker than to spit out an answer such as that). One more thing I will say your earthworm to ponder question was a hoot and even as a Christian something to ponder Lol.
March 6, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
colobob ( anonymous ) says...
No quotes, no rebuttal, just my declaration of my belief in God, now and for eternity.
Have a good day everyone!
March 6, 2008 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter; For lack of time, (need to be somewhere) are there not holes in both theories? are the scientists not as narrow minded as some believers. Depending on the virtues of those who raised you and circumstances that I gather you could not control as a child it appears to me that you have and almost angry (sorry don't mean to be harsh) view for both sides and that saddens me. Even as you profess to be a non-believer I sense that you crave answers. Regardless of which side they rise from.
March 6, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Dog-we are to assume you are human as the rest of us. Since when is taking a human approach strictly just an appeal on ones emotions. While humans I agree don't always make clearly drawn lines where their emotions and their brains conflict. As humans that line might find its shady area even in the "logical" as the old quote goes "to error is human". Plainly because of our fallibility we (you,I or anyone) can't decide in all absolute the truth what someone else might find elusive and another consoling. That is the beauty of faith it is the peace of believing in what steers you.
For some it is Biblically based, for others it could be in many "gods" or in auras etc. etc.. What I find perplexing is that as humans we naturally have a need to obtain answers to the unknown yet some of us don't realize that the answers we rely on are only as good as the imperfect beings that we are.
This concept is applicable for science and the faith community.
DO we really know???? We must choose to believe in what "jives" with us. So while you may choose evolution, I may choose creation or something entirely different. I really wouldn't tell you that you are wrong (I think you insinuated Christians were kooks) I don't think you can in all honestly call me totally incorrect either. So my question to you earlier was based on emotional appeal perhaps but that usually is what drives us as the humans we are. Why do you seem so interested in our faith beliefs yet turn your back on all you explained was the foundation of your youth? Maybe the failure was not in Christ but in the message you received, it did come from humans who are not always right and are not only emotionally driven but often self serving. Look into your heart and realize that not everything in life has an answer and sometimes we don't like the one we get. Maybe you just have never found a presentation of our Lord that suits you.
March 6, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Dog- One more thought, Who we are in our hearts and how we choose to believe (or not to)is based largely on our perception of the world around us. To a 300lb woman who loses 150lbs and becomes a size 14 she may feel indescribably beautiful and the world to her is alive but to a woman who was always 125lbs and gains 25lbs more after the birth of a baby and becomes that size 14 even with all of the beauty of a new baby she is so depressed she hates herself and everything around her. Both woman weigh 150 both are a size 14. These woman view their surroundings differently. Is one right or wrong????
March 6, 2008 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog/ DUDE........um ....like ....I um ... expected a much more educated response than a quote of a dead rocker. But oh well.....soooooooooo disappointed Lol ; Not that I have a problem w/Zappa but hardly a life module that I would care to emulate. But far be it for me to stop you. I can already sense a dead theologians joke around the corner.
March 10, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egoeater ( anonymous ) says...
hunterdog
better study history of zappa and what happened at his death. he was a zero. hunterdogs wit? zero.
John Hagee and Pat Robertson annointed men of God. Step out to stomp Gods annointed? Better read what will follow. Just ask zappa.
March 10, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
Frank Zappa was perhaps the greatest musical genius of our time. History, long into the future, may reflect upon him as our times provocative Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
Personal favorite:
-Listening to "Catholic Girls" while lounging in wicca furniture, worshipping the sun, drinking killer banana DaiquirÃ, and being greatful that I don't reside in that man forsaken place called the Middle East...
March 10, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
Zappa was a zero?
Is that because he was a Grammy award winning musician? Or is it because he was inducted in to the rock and roll hall of fame? No? It must be because the city of Baltimore has named a day after him. No? Is it because Rolling Stone included him in the 100 greatest artists of all time? How about the fact that he was a prolific composer of Jazz and Classical music arrangements? Any of these right? No? Must be because he was invited by Vaclav Havel to be a consultant to the Czech government. Only a real zero would get an offer like that! Wait wait, ive got it, is it because, politically, he refered to himself as a practical conservative? No? damn, i was sure that was it.
Wait, im sorry...its because he died of cancer. Thats it. And if ive got your "logic" correct, people who die of cancer are being smited by the all mighty smighter. Damn, instead of all the yellow Livestrong bracelets, we should just wear ones that say "Die, Sinner"
March 10, 2008 at 6:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog(aka hadley) suckerforlife
Looks like birds of a feather flock together,
Frank Zappa
DUMB ALL OVER
Whoever we are
Wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more
Than tryin' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
'cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near 'n far
Dumb all over,
Black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nerds on the left
Nerds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin' the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
'bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book
We got over here
You can't run a race
Without no feet
'n pretty soon
There won't be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up
?n disappear
It'll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)
You can't run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
March 10, 2008 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Continued: From Frank Zappa
To arms! to arms!
Hooray! that's great
Two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
("it gotta be that way!")
But their book says:
"revenge the crusades...
With whips 'n chains
'n hand grenades..."
Two arms' two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
"there ain't no other!"
Our God says
"it's all okay!"
Our God says
"this is the way!"
It says in the book:
"burn 'n destroy...
?n repent, 'n redeem
?n revenge, 'n deploy
'n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'cause they don't go for what's in the book
'n that makes 'em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existence
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
("cause he can really take care of business!")
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'cause if we don't do it,
We ain't gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book you're using at the
Time...can't use theirs... it don't work
...it's all lies...gotta use mine...)
Ain't that right?
That's what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we can't really be dumb
If we're just following God's orders
Hey, let's get serious...
God knows what He's doin'
He wrote this book here
An? the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,"
So...
If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an' maybe even a little ugly on the side)
March 10, 2008 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Yeah! Frank Zappa was a real big zero.
Hunter, sucker
Certainly people have done bad things claiming God or the Bible or the church told them or influenced them to do it, yet when you look close you find they were really representing themselves, their prejudice, hate, bitterness, etc. You guys need to seek things out for yourself. Don't cling to personalities like Zappa. Hunterdog's postings are quite like Zappa's lyrics. What about the Real Hunterdog? I would rather debate you not the reflection of Frank Zappa, he's dead after all and the dead know nothing.
March 10, 2008 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
The idea of a religious nutjob like yourself telling anyone to think for themselves is laughable. Your mind is as closed as they get.
That said, believe whatever you want, no skin off my nose. Just as long as you don't plan on flying any planes in to any buildings, like your oh so faithful brethren.
March 10, 2008 at 10:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
You know, i'm really not a HUGE fan of Zappa's work. Most if it is too avante garde for my mainstream ear.
However, Over-nite Sensation, Apostrophe, and Joe's Garage are brilliant.
He really was a singular musical talent. Gifted, intelligent, inspired, un-afraid, and entirely his own man.
Here's to Frank.
March 11, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bandmama ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog-be careful of asking for dates....dude. Remember
your Black Napkins.....................
March 11, 2008 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog
Wherein was God prejudiced towards you?
Wherein was God hateful towards you?
Wherein was God bitter towards you?
March 11, 2008 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog
If you were an eyewitness:
Name one thing you saw God do that was hateful.
Name one thing you saw God do that was prejudiced.
Name one thing you saw God do to develop bitterness.
Name what you saw God do.
March 11, 2008 at 7:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jeep ( anonymous ) says...
everyone on this subject, you all have your believes ,now you are fighting on the INTERNET not face to face why can't we take this blog off . plezzzzz
ps god is my friend..forever
March 11, 2008 at 9:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Two quotes to ponder:
"No structure can possibly be raised in our soul unless,
first, the foundations of true humility are laid in our hearts"
~St. John Cassian
"Pride dies twenty minutes after death"
~St.Francis De Sales
Religion or lack there of do not create injustices: Pride is the root of all evil. True Christians do not do anything with out first removing the "self". It's never really about you.
March 12, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
If you read and interpret the Bible or any other sacred text with your own selfish motivations attached you may never grasp the true meaning of what written. It is easy to slurrrrrrr the message when you have selfish intentions. Hunterdog: if you are truly as self actualized as the wish us to believe, try removing your need to prove us wrong and live with a will to serve others. Then; Christian or not you may come close to emulating some of the behaviors that your "Blessed Zappa" possessed. Yes, I did agree with some of your "mumbo jumbo" as I stated earlier I wouldn't tell you or anybody else they are wrong to believe the way they choose. Selfish interpretations of any belief however can only lead to trouble. I think you are a person of deep insight, use it wisely.
March 12, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
prayerrequests ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog
In my post I asked for eyewitness- by you. Empirical if you will, information. Not your straw man argument of quoting the Bible to defend your position that God is hateful prejudiced and bitter. That is just circular reasoning and I will not accept it for my question that I posed to you. Share with me a life experience that you witnessed with your own eyes where you saw God being hateful, bitter or prejudiced with out quoting the Bible. If it is the book of lies you claim it to be than it would certainly taint your testimony. If you persist in quoting the Bible to defend your beliefs than I would necessarily have to follow your logic through and say you are defending your lying lips with more lies. Circular logic.
March 12, 2008 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog
EYE witness
EYE
WITNESS
March 12, 2008 at 10:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog,
Sorry about posting at 9:41. User name wrong. Didn't realize computer was not logged out when I sat down to it at internet cafe.
March 12, 2008 at 10:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suckerfreeforlife ( anonymous ) says...
That is such an inane request, I can't believe an adult human being is making it.
You want someone who vehemently denies the existence of God to point to an action by said non existent God?
The ONLY "evidence" of God is the Bible, which is supposed to be His/Hers/Its word. Yet the Bible is not sufficient to characterize Gods temperament? Absurd.
Of course, the list of bitter, hateful and prejudiced atrocities committed in the name of God is well documented and ever growing, but you no doubt sanitize that by claiming those are perversions of faith. In fact, those are the predictable consequences of faith.
March 12, 2008 at 10:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunterdog/ May I start "my" defense with secular definitions? Great, while you sniff and tinkle allow me.......As defined by Mr Webster himself....
*Evangelist-1. an author of the gospel. 2.itinerant preacher
*Apologist- 1.one in confession of fault in search of forgiveness through ones faith. 2. who uses a renouncement of faith to defend ones actions.
Now in both definitions I see no reference to stuffing one believes selfishly down someone else's neck. Therefore lets just remove for the sake of discussion those organized religious zealots who do this. As I stated earlier a true Christian would not. Since it never has been my intent nor will it ever be to attempt to convert, save or in any other way convince others to do as I do I feel I do apply this "rule" to myself. By todays general assumption of the definition an Evangelist is one who not only professes ones faith but selfishly feels everyone should believe the same. An Apologist however professes and may even share how they believe frequently leading by example to others but would not "brow beat their beliefs onto another". An example of this would be that certain churches even consider it a sin to interfere with the relationship that someone else holds with their "maker" or lack there of. This practice of "saving" others is really all about making some "dude" in a suit rich and feel good about himself. I can see why you along with many others have a sad interpretation of the church body. NO ONE is ever saved by these or other feel good conversions or professions of such. A true Christian (who does fail frequently *per earlier discussion) continues to always do what is right, just and as unselfish as possible. Then when death befalls us and if we arrive at the gates ONLY our maker can truly "save us". I love people who ask me if I'm saved. My patent answer on that is "working on it I'll get back to you after death". They really don't know how to answer. The only being there for that truly can save us (if you believe or profess to) is God and there for to interfere with his relationship what ever it may be is plainly a sin or black mark on our souls. So yes Hunter I do my best to apply these to my daily life and I do proclaim to be a Christian and if you also follow these rules then you my friend are closer to the "golden gates" and God's hand then you realize.
March 13, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter/- I would not ask you to defend your position on God or the Bible. As everybody including our dear protestant etc... friends have different takes on these issues. Quoting the Bible is no different then quoting anything else to someone it is all in how it strikes you at that moment. There for every passage could mean something literal, paradoxical or even useless to each individual. So stop using scripture quotes to beat up others beliefs up and defend your stance if you must based on your experiences. Why could there be no God? I'm not criticizing but asking. Why are each of us with almost matching DNA all such independent thinkers of each other and other animals. Do you really think it is by chance that I am I and you are you? I think this is what others are also asking of you.
March 13, 2008 at 12:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog: Almost forgot, "mumbo jumbo" Recitation of scriptures with your own interpretation attached. Just in case you wondered what I meant.
March 13, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
424now ( anonymous ) says...
To all the believers-Judge not lest ye be judged.
To all the non believer-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
March 14, 2008 at 5:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Hunter-dog
I questioned your circular logic because you offer no tangible evidence of God being hateful, bitter, prejudiced. I merely applied the same logic you applied to your Christian family when you questioned their beliefs. You obviously saw something with your own eyes that caused you to question and then doubt. It obviously drives you now. Yet you will not bring it into the conversation. I see no point for you to pose scriptural questions to me when you obviously do not want an answer. You only want a spectacle. Why is this debate personal for you instead of scholarly?
March 14, 2008 at 8:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
nibbler/ Thank -you for the eloquent bit of verbiage directed at H-dog. I too will wait for his answer. p.s. To H-dog, not all who believe want your money. Besides it's not yours, mine or anybody else's. It (everything) belongs to God. Possessions are only yours on loan.
March 14, 2008 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Emmalee,
I agree with you about the money. Especially your honesty. No doubt there have been and will be people who steal, secular and religious. I often think of how Enron management cheated their own employees of there 401ks and manipulated electrical markets in California for personal gain. I would not be surprised if many people outside of Enron watched their own 401ks more closely after that scandal. I would be wrong to take the Enron scandal and apply it to all companies and call them thieves, but wisdom is learning what happened at Enron and watching my own employer closely for same flaws and calling them on the carpet if I see corruption. I think the same applies to believers. We are supposed to use discernement and good judgement to avoid wolves in sheeps clothing in all things.
March 14, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Nibbler/ The wolves are in all sects you are right. whether it's the teacher, minister or stranger that defiles : the worker, employee or employer that steals; or even if it is our own parents that lead us astray with their own examples or misdirected morals. Corruption is EVERYWHERE. No where in the Holy text are we asked to follow these leads or to do things of immoral standing as H-dog seems to believe. We are asked only to use these words to lead by example. "We are ALL called to Holy lives". Even if you are not a believer in the Bible or other texts. Those that stray in their vocations by not using all that precedes them as examples: or by not trying to better ourselves are doomed to relive history and that in it's self could be considered "H" on earth. So you need not believe, to burn or to be Holy. It's in you to hear your own calling
March 15, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hadleyburg_Press ( anonymous ) says...
*mle believes god exists
*nibbles believes god exists
*mle believes nibble's belief in god validates her belief that god exists
*nibbles believes that mle's belief in god validates his belief in god
ERGO: god exists
-Christian version of a Peer Reviewed Theory-
PS. mle and nibbles, your amazing powers of logic and reasoning are needed on a another blog titled "we are all collateral". Stompk has used your hloy book to discover that the mark of the beast is VISA. Go help explain why he is wrong or right given his logic is precisely akin to yours.
March 15, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/ What is your calling? What is your own definition of "faith"? (secular please:).
March 15, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Hadley/ Your comments seem to reflect that which you and H-dog could also be congruent with. Surprising to me is that you would post for us to answer when you two have not come up with the answer. Lol. By the way question to H-dog: You too????
March 15, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
Had/ To owe any man even that which is even an enormous debt of gratitude could gnaw away at another man soul if he has the humility to know that he could not repay if asked. When these debts become ones derived of selfish intent (read back several days) then the burden is even greater. One needs not to be a believer in God to feel a burden of debt weigh heavily upon his shoulders. Since we (humans) are self serving beings VISA is not using us with out our own consent. It's like the old saying "guns don't kill people;people kill people. If you don't like the "beast" (VISA)no one but you built the relationship."Just say no" Lol.
March 15, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/ Awe... "scholarly fairy tales". I believe that both sides of this issue could consider this "self contradictory" text. I have not failed to answer you nor am a afraid to do so. Impatience is the death of a good debate. Anger is a sign of frustration. To answer your inquiry at least by what a regard as "my" reasons for belief; I need you to answer with "secular and reasonable approach" the question I posed to you a few posts ago.
March 15, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog
It is interesting how you and Hadley jumped on Emmalee and I right away after one shared post. Is this paranoia?
I have read all your previous posts and see no point in answering your scriptural questions because you refuse to answer my questions posed to you about what drives you to such hatred against the Bible and God and Jesus. Your posts no doubt strong declare your ability to read the Bible, yet there is something inside your spirit that makes you read it to hate it. I know from your posts that this spiritual mechanism did not originate from your reading of the Bible or what you read from it but it clearly came from outside sources.
March 15, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/
~" Heb.9:13-14,22
Speaking such may not be a literal text but one of asking us to self sacrifice of our own loves to become less selfish (there it is again:) and more self actualized. The Bible is a series of parables and stories told and sensationalizes by man but handed down by God as a guide for moral living. It is possible to love another more than ourselves and by being asked to "sacrifice" others even the most innocent we are being asked to THINK. Did it occur to you that it is not a literal translation you are being asked to hear but simply a never ending question to ponder through out life's journey? Even if there is no existence of "God" would this question be out of line?
~ 1st Corn.14:34-35
All men answer to their maker (or lack there of) eventually. Nobody is in a place to judge others. I'm not judging you either. I have my reasons you have yours. Mine are based on the idea that when I put God's word into action in my life things seem less out of sorts. Chance ? maybe but I'll take my chances. When I don't things always go astray. I feel that even with out "seeing a tangible God" it seems so awe inspiring that so much "possibly handed down by him" seems so true and applicable to peace in my life and in my family.I'll run with it. Back to ALL men answer.... no one judge lest he be judged. No woman judge her man as she was placed on earth to be his "help meet". Our society today seems to have a blatant disrespect for our men and our women seem to have taken this and run with it whole hog. Our men are supposed to be providers, protectors, lovers share the house work and childcare evenly and when they fall short; the all mighty finger is pointed. Yet when women do the same we are fed by society a tousle of excuses to use for our failures is it no wonder why our men today doubt their very existence as being true. They (even at their best) usually feel as failures do to the women in their lives. If we as women honored, cherished and revered the men in our lives then this is what God is asking. How much peace would befall upon our families. (be clear I am not speaking of taking advantage of women but of respect)Are you the head of your household? How does your position in your home make you feel. And would taking a closer look at this scripture based on these principals and appling it at home make you a better man and if your wife (if you have one)would she be more cherished by you?
~ Deut. 13:6-10
Death of a man can take many forms (for one refer to last para).Besides the literal which is that of the living flesh, man can die also by his own shortcomings or those placed upon him be others (last paragraph again :). We are asked by God to admonish the sinner; to teach, to lead and if still in sin to turn our heads (shame). "So that we may rise again in glory to serve the living (our life on earth) and the dead (our Maker). Not really an issue of dirt and ashes but of morality.
March 15, 2008 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog sorry about the long post but you asked me to answer your questions. My interpretations may not be those of others and that's ok. However H-dog while you have a great ability to "quote " scripture your ability to "apply" these words to your life seems to not work for you. Hey, love ya man but try again :)
March 15, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/ "scholarly fairy tales" my verbiage not yours. No lack of comprehension sorry. Simply meant that both "phrases" could be applied to both sides of the discussion. I missed YOUR answer (not a restatement of mine)to what faith is to you and the answer to my other questions? Still curious? Not asking you to believe or defend just let us know what makes you tick. Hope I answered to your first scriptural quotes satisfactorily. have a few chores to do and if you REALLY need me to I'll answer your others. Anybody else care to give these a whirl Lol???
March 15, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/ While you are correct that I can not prove the existence of God (especially to you, certain aspects of scripture appear to make you squirm and pick and choose as well). Niether can you prove your theory beyond a reasonable doubt. Hello... that is why BOTH are considered theories. Kielbasa's answer to you earlier was right on). Prayers are offerings of deep thought, thanks and sometimes questions that need answers. I doubt that anybody who meditates, journals or ponders life's mysteries (prayer) either aloud or to ones self is insane.Sometimes we arrive at the answers we seek just through this process but simply doing these things does not make them "magical incantations" One who never does this would scare me. I never said that I believed in reincarnation ( did you mean The Koran)"the cow". Why does belief in God make us unstable and your lack there of make you not? Again I ask you what is YOUR calling in life? and let me add to that, "do you honestly believe that there is NO power greater than yourself?
March 15, 2008 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog/ Never claimed to be for the degradation of of women.You are insightful when you want to be. Read what I wrote again maybe you missed something (sniff, sniff.....).
March 15, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emmalee ( anonymous ) says...
H-dog stated I was guilty of "cherry picking" look who is calling the kettle black? I may be guilty as charged but look hard at yourself:)
March 15, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Emmalee
This is my last post. Notice h-dog's march15 11:58 am post.
See his qoutes of scripture for King David on how Goliath was slain? H-dog is wrong. 1 Samuel 17:45 Tells us Goliath had a sword. After David knocked him out with the stone from a sling he ran up and drew the giant's own sword and decapitated him. This is deliberate on h-dog's part. Just as much as he ignores the truth about himself in previous posts he also ignores verses previous to the ones he qoutes in the Bible. H-dog never has read the Bible. He mishandles the scripture to us because his sources mishandled it to him. If you go way back up in the posts you will see initially many different people conversed with h-dog and many sickened by the illogic of his comments. In these later posts the commentators are you, me and h-dog. Hadley is just h-dog talking to himself, why? Because he is lonely. When one like h-dog is lonely they crave attention. Good or bad, deserved or undeserved any will do. Therefore misqouting scripture intentional or not is his goal. Crude characterizations of the children of the King are not done because they are true or false, but to push a button and harvest a reaction. Attention.
This is where it all starts to come home for h-dog. He seeks attention because he did not get it as a child. The God hating aspect comes in from his family life as a child (look to h-dog response to ethan above). H-dog blames all his problems and faults on his christian family upbringing. I don't know if it was good or bad or if the fault lies only with h-dog and he needs a scapegoat so he does not have to face himself and heal. H-dog is athiest because he needs it to live (in his own mind).
The athiest persona is some one he can be codependent on. Athiesm reassures him that all christians are messed up and God is bad and the Bible is full of lies. Athiesm needs people like h-dog. They need people to agree with them and believe in them and spread their gospel otherwise they would disappear like a vapor.
March 17, 2008 at 2:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Whoever h-dog is he closely identifies with his username and probably in more ways than he realizes. Hunterdog is like a dog hunting for attention. Ever been to the Steamboat animal shelter? Notice the puppy dogs. They crave attention from any who walk into the room they will do anything for attention, good or bad. Unless they are loved on, disciplined with love and brought up-right, they will continue to jump all over you and nip at your fingers and heels, bark at you, throw their body at you well beyond puppyhood. All for what purpose? Attention.They need love but don't know what it is or how to get it. Hunterdog goes to great lengths to gather any attention/love just like this puppydog hunting for attention. The biting of the puppydog is like Hunter misqouting scripture it is done deliberately for attention at the expense of any fruitful discussion. Children like this act out in class and disrupt it purely for attention and are satisfied even if disciplined. Athiesm is a great source of attention and going out and bashing God the Bible and Jesus (see h-dogs response to ethan) gives h-dog much satisfaction, it matters not if he is right or wrong. In fact the more people respond to h-dogs bashing the more excited the puppydog gets and jumps and nips all the more.
Any master whose dog misbehaves is also at fault. Perhaps h-dogs master is also at fault for his behavior. Maybe he had a dysfunctional family, no father figure or a bad father figure. Something cut off the love, attention and discipline that H-dog should've got. Many children don't realize their families are dysfunctional because it is the only family they know and therefore it must be right. They go on to be adults and have families and commit the exact same mistakes their parents did and not even realize it, but are rather apt to blame some one else for the dysfunction. In this case God the Father.
March 17, 2008 at 2:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nibbler ( anonymous ) says...
Speaking directly to h-dog: you had a dysfunctional family weather you admit it or not. It is functional in your mind because it is all you knew. You attack God because the family He offers to you appears dysfunctional in your eyes.Your eyes have only seen your family and anything different is offensive and threatens to uncover all the skeletons in the closet of a dysfunctional family. I know. I have been there. I do pray for you Hunter-dog. I pray that God is gracious towards you even while you attack Him. I pray that Jesus will never cease to knock on your door. I know God will always be ready to reach down and lift you up if you ask Him. Not flippantly but when you have tired of shining your own light on yourself, when your tired of the bitterness, the hatred and the tears. I know God has more love for you than He does me. How could that be? Read the prodigal son in the NT. The one son who stayed at home with his father was jealous of all the attention his father showered on his lost son when he came home. The fathers response to his son jealousy was that he knew the one was safe but the other was lost and his heart yearned for his lost son. God has a heart Hunter and He yearns for you. He has so much love to shower on you that it would stun you, absolutely stun you. So much love that he would send His only Son to die for you. So much love that every angel shouts for joy when you ask Him to save you. He has a family that loves you so much that it is beyond words to describe.
March 17, 2008 at 2:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )